Anybody know anything about Solar or Geothermal energy?

I realize most modern applications of Solar power involve electricity, but not all. Geothermal is also used for electricity, but the most common use is heating/cooling.

There are a lot of passive solar energy solutions that have been used for years; planting deciduous trees in strategic locations, orienting windows to use or avoid solar heating, etc. Passive geothermal is similar, but also involves piping hot-springs to radiators in cold climates (Iceland,) medicinal hot baths, and similar uses.

The Proscriptions mention "Wind, Water, and Muscle" as the only allowable sources of "power" but there is no mention of Solar or Geothermal. Is that because of a lack in the definition of "power" or are solar and geothermal mentioned elsewhere in the Writ covering housing construction and/or cooking.

What kind of Solar Energy applications might Safeholdians be using within the Writ?

What kind of non-electric applications might they come up with?

How quickly will they move to Solar Power Generation once the Proscriptions are voided?

The same questions apply to Geothermal.

Are there any other "Green Energy" applications in use or workable that I've missed?

Weird Harold wrote:I realize most modern applications of Solar power involve electricity, but not all. Geothermal is also used for electricity, but the most common use is heating/cooling.

It is the conversion of the solar or Geothermal into a "useful form of energy" that would be the issue. Usually this useful form is electricity. I don't see you talking about solar water heaters so Caleb can have a hot bath.

Weird Harold wrote:I realize most modern applications of Solar power involve electricity, but not all. Geothermal is also used for electricity, but the most common use is heating/cooling.

There are a lot of passive solar energy solutions that have been used for years; planting deciduous trees in strategic locations, orienting windows to use or avoid solar heating, etc. Passive geothermal is similar, but also involves piping hot-springs to radiators in cold climates (Iceland,) medicinal hot baths, and similar uses.

The Proscriptions mention "Wind, Water, and Muscle" as the only allowable sources of "power" but there is no mention of Solar or Geothermal. Is that because of a lack in the definition of "power" or are solar and geothermal mentioned elsewhere in the Writ covering housing construction and/or cooking.

What kind of Solar Energy applications might Safeholdians be using within the Writ?

What kind of non-electric applications might they come up with?

How quickly will they move to Solar Power Generation once the Proscriptions are voided?

The same questions apply to Geothermal.

Are there any other "Green Energy" applications in use or workable that I've missed?

You have to separate deliberate design versus cultural & traditional.

There are thermal passive solar building techniques that were traditional and cultural that we now consider as a technology. Northern climates having south-facing exposures and tropical locales have deep eaves and porches.

Geothermal starts with using surface features like hot springs and progresses from there. Making active use of geothermal's output of hot water in residences would require pipes and plumbing that it appears is coming to Charis.

Note, the Romans developed the concept of "Spas" in the "Roman Baths" where they found surface hot springs. They also developed under-floor heating called hypocausts but the turnover in trained slaves to maintain the system was expensive.

I doubt that the Charisan world view would actually SEE solar passive heating as an energy issue. They wouldn't view it in the first place as "using energy". Same with geothermal heating.

Charybdis wrote:

Weird Harold wrote:I realize most modern applications of Solar power involve electricity, but not all. Geothermal is also used for electricity, but the most common use is heating/cooling.

There are a lot of passive solar energy solutions that have been used for years; planting deciduous trees in strategic locations, orienting windows to use or avoid solar heating, etc. Passive geothermal is similar, but also involves piping hot-springs to radiators in cold climates (Iceland,) medicinal hot baths, and similar uses.

The Proscriptions mention "Wind, Water, and Muscle" as the only allowable sources of "power" but there is no mention of Solar or Geothermal. Is that because of a lack in the definition of "power" or are solar and geothermal mentioned elsewhere in the Writ covering housing construction and/or cooking.

What kind of Solar Energy applications might Safeholdians be using within the Writ?

What kind of non-electric applications might they come up with?

How quickly will they move to Solar Power Generation once the Proscriptions are voided?

The same questions apply to Geothermal.

Are there any other "Green Energy" applications in use or workable that I've missed?

You have to separate deliberate design versus cultural & traditional.

There are thermal passive solar building techniques that were traditional and cultural that we now consider as a technology. Northern climates having south-facing exposures and tropical locales have deep eaves and porches.

Geothermal starts with using surface features like hot springs and progresses from there. Making active use of geothermal's output of hot water in residences would require pipes and plumbing that it appears is coming to Charis.

Note, the Romans developed the concept of "Spas" in the "Roman Baths" where they found surface hot springs. They also developed under-floor heating called hypocausts but the turnover in trained slaves to maintain the system was expensive.

bigrunt wrote:It is the conversion of the solar or Geothermal into a "useful form of energy" that would be the issue. Usually this useful form is electricity. I don't see you talking about solar water heaters so Caleb can have a hot bath.

Actually, solar water heaters would be part of the "what tech is used within the Proscriptions" question.

Solar Ovens might be another "within the Proscriptions" usage that just isn't mentioned.

A Mirror Farm heating a central pylon to produce steam or anneal forgings, might be something that skirts the Proscriptions. (similar to liquid sodium solar farms)

As for geothermal, where does the Temple get sufficient energy that it can exhaust waste heat so the poor of Zion can camp on the exhausts in winter? Does the Temple act as a giant greenhouse, or is it built over a hot-spring, or does it tap deep in the planet for true geothermal heating?

Charybdis wrote:You have to separate deliberate design versus cultural & traditional.

There are thermal passive solar building techniques that were traditional and cultural that we now consider as a technology. Northern climates having south-facing exposures and tropical locales have deep eaves and porches.

Wouldn't "Traditional and Cultural" in Safeholdian terms be synonymous with "According to the Writ?"

Charybdis wrote:Geothermal starts with using surface features like hot springs and progresses from there. Making active use of geothermal's output of hot water in residences would require pipes and plumbing that it appears is coming to Charis.

Note, the Romans developed the concept of "Spas" in the "Roman Baths" where they found surface hot springs. They also developed under-floor heating called hypocausts but the turnover in trained slaves to maintain the system was expensive.

The Romans built elaborate baths with controlled flows of hot and cold waters. Similar buildings techniques could be used for a "hot water" hypocaust system -- divert hot-springs through channels in the foundation in winter and divert the hot-spring to an outdoor channel in summer.

I don't see any particular problem with such a system passing the inquisition, and it may even be explicitly recommended in the Writ.

jgnfld wrote:I doubt that the Charisan world view would actually SEE solar passive heating as an energy issue. They wouldn't view it in the first place as "using energy". Same with geothermal heating.

I suspect you're right. Still, I also suspect that both are circumscribed by the Writ; recommended in some respects and forbidden in others.

The Authors of the Writ would have thought in terms of Energy Efficiency and Pollution Levels so they would have had something to say about alternative energy sources useable within the tech level to which they were limiting Safehold.

Weird Harold wrote:The Proscriptions mention "Wind, Water, and Muscle" as the only allowable sources of "power" but there is no mention of Solar or Geothermal. Is that because of a lack in the definition of "power" or are solar and geothermal mentioned elsewhere in the Writ covering housing construction and/or cooking.

Fire's been used from day 1 in cooking but isn't part of the "Holy Trinity". I don't see Solar or Geothermal being any different.

Although I expect Safeholdians to be a bit leary about using Geothermal. "Um, you want to use a volcano to warm bath water? Don't those things... y'know... explode at unpredictable times?"

Solar's pretty safe, buy would require a conceptual leap. And you can only really build working solar plants in places that arguably don't need it: bright, sunny, WARM places.

Although... don't greenhouses already exist on Safehold?

Weird Harold wrote:As for geothermal, where does the Temple get sufficient energy that it can exhaust waste heat so the poor of Zion can camp on the exhausts in winter? Does the Temple act as a giant greenhouse, or is it built over a hot-spring, or does it tap deep in the planet for true geothermal heating?

IIRC, it was mentioned that it has some sort of generators (nuclear or fusion, I think). Merlin mentioned that they create way much more energy than the Temple needs. Although geothermal would probably be better in a long run - fusion generators need fuel too.

[wild thought: what if Temple is sitting on the ore of radioactive materials and there are dozens of tiny nanites exploiting it to supply the Temple? ]

Whether or not they could use geothermal depends on what the climate is. It would certainly be a blessing in northern countries, where it could be used for heating houses, but I believe it largely depends on the geology of the area (Icelanders can do it because they sit on volcanic lands. We know there are volcanoes on Safehold, but they weren't mentioned in TL or Siddarmark).

Kakai wrote:

Weird Harold wrote:[wild thought: what if Temple is sitting on the ore of radioactive materials and there are dozens of tiny nanites exploiting it to supply the Temple? ]

Wouldn't radioactive decay products (alpha, beta, and gamma radiation) be damaging to molecule sized nanites that are handling radioactive atoms?