Black Powder and Rate of Fire

fallsfromtrees wrote:

USMA74 wrote:As requested.
Ammunition Basic Load for Infantry Division (from the 1959 edition of the U.S. Army FM 101-10, Staff Officer's Field Manual)
Figures reflect the U.S. Army's WWII and Korea experiences.

M1911A1 Pistol 31 rds (21 on Soldier, 7 on vehicle, 3 bulk load)
M-1 Rifle 200 rds (72 on Soldier, 96 on vehicle, 32 bulk load)
105mm Howitzer 200 rds (60 on vehicle, 140 bulk load)
155mm Howitzer 150 rds (24 on vehicle, 126 bulk load)

Estimated Ammunition Expenditures
Pistol, auto, cal .45 Defense (Day 1, 2 rds--then 1 rd/day) Attack (Day 1, 2 rds--then 1 rd/day)
Rifle, cal .30 Defense (Day 1, 25 rds--then 15 rds/day) Attack (Day 1, 20 rds--then 15 rds/day)
105mm Howitzer Defense (Day 1, 180 rds--Succeeding days, 110 rds) Attack (Permanent Fortifications) (Day 1, 150 rds--Succeeding days, 90 rds)
155mm Howitzer Defense (Day 1, 140 rds--Succeeding days, 85 rds) Attack (Permanent Fortifications) (Day 1, 120 rds--Succeeding days, 70 rds)

These expenditure rates reflect an average across the entire force to include echelon headquarters and sustainment units. Obviously the useage in front line infantry companies would be far higher.

Hope this is useful.

Magnificent

Yeah, great post and just the sort of thing Howsmyn would need to know how much ammo he needs to produce.

Don

During the black powder age, a cartridge box of 60 rounds was relatively common. While specifics vary from army to army and place to place, 60 rounds/man seems to be an average.

In the period before the great war, carrying 100 or so rounds in a bandolier seems to have been an average figure for most army riflemen, but once again the specifics can vary.

The Great War saw a start in the shift towards crew served and area weapons, so while a rifleman might still have a 100 round bandolier, he was more often carrying rifle grenades, mills bombs, Lewis Gun ammunition drums and so on to do the actual killing (these examples would be for a Canadian or Imperial soldier of the Great War after @ 1916). A lot of extra weight would be carried as well in the form of engineering or signalling equipment (steel pickets, rolls of signals wire, field telephones etc.), most of which was for use during consolidation after the attack had reached the culminating point. the 100 or so rifle rounds were essentially for self defense and to cover the area/automatic weapons during movement or while loading/clearing the Lewis gun and rifle grenade launchers.

Based on these historical observations, and what we have seen so far in the books, I would suggest that a British or Imperial rifleman of the early Boer War might actually best represent what the ICA is modelled after (although we would need RFC to actually confirm or deny this).

Thucydides wrote:
Based on these historical observations, and what we have seen so far in the books, I would suggest that a British or Imperial rifleman of the early Boer War might actually best represent what the ICA is modelled after (although we would need RFC to actually confirm or deny this).

So what the CoGA needs to win is a couple of hundred thousand Zulu's with Assegai....(and Charis to have a few hundred rule bound quartermasters who wouldn't issue anything without a requisition in the wrong place...)

AirTech wrote:

Thucydides wrote:
Based on these historical observations, and what we have seen so far in the books, I would suggest that a British or Imperial rifleman of the early Boer War might actually best represent what the ICA is modelled after (although we would need RFC to actually confirm or deny this).

So what the CoGA needs to win is a couple of hundred thousand Zulu's with Assegai....(and Charis to have a few hundred rule bound quartermasters who wouldn't issue anything without a requisition in the wrong place...)

There you go, Airtech... Those quartermasters are otherwise known as bean counters...

Don

AirTech wrote:

Thucydides wrote:
Based on these historical observations, and what we have seen so far in the books, I would suggest that a British or Imperial rifleman of the early Boer War might actually best represent what the ICA is modelled after (although we would need RFC to actually confirm or deny this).

So what the CoGA needs to win is a couple of hundred thousand Zulu's with Assegai....(and Charis to have a few hundred rule bound quartermasters who wouldn't issue anything without a requisition in the wrong place...)

Weirdly, that may be a fairly accurate description of the mass of the Harchongese army (substitute pikes for Assegai....). Lord help the ICA if the Quartermaster Corps can't keep up with the needs of the front line troops.

AirTech wrote:...
So what the CoGA needs to win is a couple of hundred thousand Zulu's with Assegai....

Not necessarily a bad description of the Harchongese Horde.

jgnfld wrote:

AirTech wrote:...
So what the CoGA needs to win is a couple of hundred thousand Zulu's with Assegai....

Not necessarily a bad description of the Harchongese Horde.

I suppose we will see how accurate this characterization is with the book. I'm hoping there is more to it than mass slaughter.

Don

n7axw wrote:

jgnfld wrote:quote="AirTech"...
So what the CoGA needs to win is a couple of hundred thousand Zulu's with Assegai..../quote

Not necessarily a bad description of the Harchongese Horde.

I suppose we will see how accurate this characterization is with the book. I'm hoping there is more to it than mass slaughter.

Don

As they do have a goodly number of advanced weapons, just nowhere near enough for all, my expectation is actually that it will more like the Russian advance of WW2 where reserve soldiers were responsible for picking up and using the weapons of the casualties. Like the Russian front there will be huge casualties, but like the Russian front there will be advances up to some point. I assume that will be stopped eventually, unlike the Nazi's were able to do! Of course since the the actual success of the Russian advance was made possible by immense Lend-Lease supplies, the lack of same could be what stops the Harchong Horde advance.

jgnfld wrote:As they do have a goodly number of advanced weapons, just nowhere near enough for all, my expectation is actually that it will more like the Russian advance of WW2 where reserve soldiers were responsible for picking up and using the weapons of the casualties. Like the Russian front there will be huge casualties, but like the Russian front there will be advances up to some point. I assume that will be stopped eventually, unlike the Nazi's were able to do! Of course since the the actual success of the Russian advance was made possible by immense Lend-Lease supplies, the lack of same could be what stops the Harchong Horde advance.

Of course, the big difference here is that the "Russians" on Safehold are poorly equipped to deal with winter weather while the "Germans" have their entire strategy revolving around a winter campaign.

If anything, I'd peg the Siddarmarkians as the "Russians" in this war. One of the world's largest nations that had a surprise attack launched on it by a nominal "ally" and then fended off the attackers over the course of winter (two of them no less!) with the aid of overseas allies? Sounds very Russian to me. The only thing they're lacking is overwhelming numbers and paranoid tyrant leaders.

It's been said before about just changing up ammo for the M96's, from black power to smokeless.

Won't work out too well.

The rifling twist rate on black power is way too "slow" - around 48-54 turns per inch, whereas smokeless power requires a faster twist rate, say, 1o to 18 TPI, depending on diameter (caliber) and bullet weight.

Accuracy would be drastically poorer. Almost like a smooth-bore.

Not to mention - have you ever seen a black-powder weapon loaded with smokeless powder? You'd be lucky to keep your fingers or hand on after. The chamber pressures are much higher with smokeless.

Unless, or course, the M96's were designed to handle that higher chamber pressure.

My 2 cents.