How would you describe the past? (spoilers)

I would compare the Safehold religion with ancient texts.
Langhorne took this from Confucius, this came from Zoroaster, etc.

pokermind wrote:Hmm one wonders if anyone can truly understand the past our attitudes, beliefs and basic societal assumptions are different from societies in the past. We are trained in our attitudes by society and our parents, however I remember as a child thinking some attitudes were wrong. I remember playing with black children at the depot in Portland Oregon on the way to the 1962 Worlds fair in Seattle, and then having my father say and I quote, "It doesn't look nice for a white kid to play with [plural of the 'N' word]." And my shock as the black kids were the only kids my age to play with, stupid I thought. I remember the 'colored only' drinking fountains and rest rooms when we visited recitatives in the south and thinking it was stupid. I remember thinking it was stupid not to be allowed to play with Mexican children in southern California. Political correctness has removed the words from our language that we used commonly in my youth. Yes we were acculturated to racism back then. Many of my generation asked why? And our children were taught to take all people as individuals a necessary step to the equality our government promised.

However the world as a whole did not sing 'Kombia' some religions preach overt intolerance to another religion, this I find very objectionable as I believe in freedom of religion. Sigh, I find myself growing disillusioned. Such is life from idealistic youth to disillusioned curmudgeon.

Poker

It doesn't sound as though you were very acculturated to those intolerant "norms". That's terrific, hope you were able to pass those attitudes to your children.

Starsaber wrote:I probably wouldn't go much into "ancient history" at first. I'd probably start with Operation Ark/the Gbaba War, with a few branches into earlier times. Probably a few mentions of religious texts that inspired pieces of the Writ, depending on how the person is taking things.

This is a pretty good approach, and almost exactly how Nahrmahn and Ohlyvya were introduced to the big reveal in AMF. (Although a holographic player was present, so I expect Merlin used it.) Maikel Staynair, Cayleb, and Sharley were also there.

In sharing the big reveal with Aivah and Sandaria, my first inclination was to show it by holograph, since they're in the cave, but explaining to someone that their entire worldview was a concocted lie to keep mankind imprisoned on Safehold forever is something that needs to be done by a method by which which they can identify and understand. That's why Archbishop Staynair is included so often, since he represents the entirely false CoGA, yet still believes in God. (The CoC is only a kinder and gentler form of the CoGA that emphasizes a personal relationship with God, with the ultimate goal to entirely remove the archangels from the religion bit by bit.)

Given those limitations, personal testimony, the presence of people who ought to be thousands of miles away, and ancient documents or relics are things people on Safehold can understand. We've seen variations of these methods used in almost every case. Doctor Sahndrah Lywys also took a sabbatical to Nimue's cave to see the sights and chat with OWL - after having things explained to her personally by people she knew and trusted.

So far we have no one whose been introduced to the inner circle by anyone they didn't know well and trust. The closest to an exception was Ohlyvya, but she underwent the the explanation with her husband Nahrmahn, and he'd developed a good working relationship with Merlin, Cayleb, and Sharley by then. She and Sharley got along well, and she trusted Staynair. Her line "I’ve already made up my mind that he [Clyntahn] doesn’t worship the same God I do" shows that she was sufficiently disgruntled with the current CoGA to accept that the archangels had also betrayed the trust of humanity.

Ohlyvya may or may not have accepted the big reveal without her trust in Nahrmahn, who had already accepted Merlin's visions and hadn't denounced him as a demon, which proved to her that Nahrmahn felt Merlin served the light. Her faith in her husband was the cornerstone of her ability to accept the truth - despite being shown a communicator, a holographic protector, and more impressively (to her) watching Merlin shave bits off a fire poker with his wakazashi, since that was a "miracle" she could understand.

It's also interesting to note that the very first things she asked to see from OWL were the religious texts from which much of the Writ was derived.

Ultimately, Sandaria's acceptance or rejection of the big reveal probably depends on how well Aivah accepts it. A cave full of magical devices that were put there by Shan-Wei isn't exactly faith promoting, although it explains a great deal about the "powers" of the archangels and from whence humanity came. Viewing the religious texts from Earth that show how the Writ paraphrased them will probably carry a greater impact than almost anything else they could do. In fact, OWL should create a database of the Writ cross-referenced to the Earthly scripture from which it was cribbed.

Recording Staynair's explanation of how the Writ was created by taking parts of Earth's religious texts, as well as his opinion of why the archangels went off the deep end and decided to trap humanity in middle-ages technology forever would be a big help in preparing a "Here's the Big Reveal" presentation. Ohlyvya and Aivah were both convinced by seeing battle steel blades with molecular edges slicing through hard substances (iron and granite) That is the demonstration that Safeholdians understand - start with that, then the story of how the "Day of Creation" came to be.

Although Father Paityr's episode of the big reveal is perhaps the most heart rending because it utterly destroyed the basis of his faith, the manner in which Nahrmahn and Ohlyvya were introduced to the truth ought to be the template for convincing individuals when they're given the "Big Reveal."

McGuiness wrote:

Starsaber wrote:I probably wouldn't go much into "ancient history" at first. I'd probably start with Operation Ark/the Gbaba War, with a few branches into earlier times. Probably a few mentions of religious texts that inspired pieces of the Writ, depending on how the person is taking things.

This is a pretty good approach, and almost exactly how Nahrmahn and Ohlyvya were introduced to the big reveal in AMF. (Although a holographic player was present, so I expect Merlin used it.) Maikel Staynair, Cayleb, and Sharley were also there.

In sharing the big reveal with Aivah and Sandaria, my first inclination was to show it by holograph, since they're in the cave, but explaining to someone that their entire worldview was a concocted lie to keep mankind imprisoned on Safehold forever is something that needs to be done by a method by which which they can identify and understand. That's why Archbishop Staynair is included so often, since he represents the entirely false CoGA, yet still believes in God. (The CoC is only a kinder and gentler form of the CoGA that emphasizes a personal relationship with God, with the ultimate goal to entirely remove the archangels from the religion bit by bit.)

Given those limitations, personal testimony, the presence of people who ought to be thousands of miles away, and ancient documents or relics are things people on Safehold can understand. We've seen variations of these methods used in almost every case. Doctor Sahndrah Lywys also took a sabbatical to Nimue's cave to see the sights and chat with OWL - after having things explained to her personally by people she knew and trusted.

So far we have no one whose been introduced to the inner circle by anyone they didn't know well and trust. The closest to an exception was Ohlyvya, but she underwent the the explanation with her husband Nahrmahn, and he'd developed a good working relationship with Merlin, Cayleb, and Sharley by then. She and Sharley got along well, and she trusted Staynair. Her line "I’ve already made up my mind that he [Clyntahn] doesn’t worship the same God I do" shows that she was sufficiently disgruntled with the current CoGA to accept that the archangels had also betrayed the trust of humanity.

Ohlyvya may or may not have accepted the big reveal without her trust in Nahrmahn, who had already accepted Merlin's visions and hadn't denounced him as a demon, which proved to her that Nahrmahn felt Merlin served the light. Her faith in her husband was the cornerstone of her ability to accept the truth - despite being shown a communicator, a holographic protector, and more impressively (to her) watching Merlin shave bits off a fire poker with his wakazashi, since that was a "miracle" she could understand.

It's also interesting to note that the very first things she asked to see from OWL were the religious texts from which much of the Writ was derived.

Ultimately, Sandaria's acceptance or rejection of the big reveal probably depends on how well Aivah accepts it. A cave full of magical devices that were put there by Shan-Wei isn't exactly faith promoting, although it explains a great deal about the "powers" of the archangels and from whence humanity came. Viewing the religious texts from Earth that show how the Writ paraphrased them will probably carry a greater impact than almost anything else they could do. In fact, OWL should create a database of the Writ cross-referenced to the Earthly scripture from which it was cribbed.

Recording Staynair's explanation of how the Writ was created by taking parts of Earth's religious texts, as well as his opinion of why the archangels went off the deep end and decided to trap humanity in middle-ages technology forever would be a big help in preparing a "Here's the Big Reveal" presentation. Ohlyvya and Aivah were both convinced by seeing battle steel blades with molecular edges slicing through hard substances (iron and granite) That is the demonstration that Safeholdians understand - start with that, then the story of how the "Day of Creation" came to be.

Although Father Paityr's episode of the big reveal is perhaps the most heart rending because it utterly destroyed the basis of his faith, the manner in which Nahrmahn and Ohlyvya were introduced to the truth ought to be the template for convincing individuals when they're given the "Big Reveal."

Didn't Princess Irys (the Duchess of Darcos) accept it better than expected?

Princess Irys was praying for a miracle to save Hektor and one shows up in the person of Merlin.

Knowing Merlin and Archbishop Staynair, there would be nothing said by them that might trigger "deals with Shan-wei thoughts" on her part.

TN4994 wrote:

McGuiness wrote:
This is a pretty good approach, and almost exactly how Nahrmahn and Ohlyvya were introduced to the big reveal in AMF. (Although a holographic player was present, so I expect Merlin used it.) Maikel Staynair, Cayleb, and Sharley were also there.

In sharing the big reveal with Aivah and Sandaria, my first inclination was to show it by holograph, since they're in the cave, but explaining to someone that their entire worldview was a concocted lie to keep mankind imprisoned on Safehold forever is something that needs to be done by a method by which which they can identify and understand. That's why Archbishop Staynair is included so often, since he represents the entirely false CoGA, yet still believes in God. (The CoC is only a kinder and gentler form of the CoGA that emphasizes a personal relationship with God, with the ultimate goal to entirely remove the archangels from the religion bit by bit.)

Given those limitations, personal testimony, the presence of people who ought to be thousands of miles away, and ancient documents or relics are things people on Safehold can understand. We've seen variations of these methods used in almost every case. Doctor Sahndrah Lywys also took a sabbatical to Nimue's cave to see the sights and chat with OWL - after having things explained to her personally by people she knew and trusted.

So far we have no one whose been introduced to the inner circle by anyone they didn't know well and trust. The closest to an exception was Ohlyvya, but she underwent the the explanation with her husband Nahrmahn, and he'd developed a good working relationship with Merlin, Cayleb, and Sharley by then. She and Sharley got along well, and she trusted Staynair. Her line "I’ve already made up my mind that he [Clyntahn] doesn’t worship the same God I do" shows that she was sufficiently disgruntled with the current CoGA to accept that the archangels had also betrayed the trust of humanity.

Ohlyvya may or may not have accepted the big reveal without her trust in Nahrmahn, who had already accepted Merlin's visions and hadn't denounced him as a demon, which proved to her that Nahrmahn felt Merlin served the light. Her faith in her husband was the cornerstone of her ability to accept the truth - despite being shown a communicator, a holographic protector, and more impressively (to her) watching Merlin shave bits off a fire poker with his wakazashi, since that was a "miracle" she could understand.

It's also interesting to note that the very first things she asked to see from OWL were the religious texts from which much of the Writ was derived.

Ultimately, Sandaria's acceptance or rejection of the big reveal probably depends on how well Aivah accepts it. A cave full of magical devices that were put there by Shan-Wei isn't exactly faith promoting, although it explains a great deal about the "powers" of the archangels and from whence humanity came. Viewing the religious texts from Earth that show how the Writ paraphrased them will probably carry a greater impact than almost anything else they could do. In fact, OWL should create a database of the Writ cross-referenced to the Earthly scripture from which it was cribbed.

Recording Staynair's explanation of how the Writ was created by taking parts of Earth's religious texts, as well as his opinion of why the archangels went off the deep end and decided to trap humanity in middle-ages technology forever would be a big help in preparing a "Here's the Big Reveal" presentation. Ohlyvya and Aivah were both convinced by seeing battle steel blades with molecular edges slicing through hard substances (iron and granite) That is the demonstration that Safeholdians understand - start with that, then the story of how the "Day of Creation" came to be.

Although Father Paityr's episode of the big reveal is perhaps the most heart rending because it utterly destroyed the basis of his faith, the manner in which Nahrmahn and Ohlyvya were introduced to the truth ought to be the template for convincing individuals when they're given the "Big Reveal."

Didn't Princess Irys (the Duchess of Darcos) accept it better than expected?

I'd start with dropping the bomb (humanity didn't originate on Safehold), and then give a really quick overview of human history up until Ark and what happened afterwards. By the time I finished they'd probably work out by themselves that COGA is a lie.

Then I'd sit back and answer questions.

khameirsith wrote:So, I'm sitting here late at night thinking how the conversation with Aivah and Sandaria went. I've always wondered what it would be like to bring someone to the cave, with teaching aid at your disposal, and explain history. How would you describe the past to someone who believes that humanity is less than 1000 years old?

Would you work chronologically backwards, going back each decade, each century? Or would you start at the beginning? Pre-historic humans, the pyramids, the rise and falls of various empires, Columbus, and on into modern tech, the space age, etc.

Where do you even start? How do you explain star ships, nuclear war, and airplanes to someone who has never traveled faster than a horse's top speed?

Would you use books? Maybe planetarium style, have them sit back and look up, and give them a presentation that would stretch across the stars? Would you have Owl do a 3-D style, interactive room? Maybe a holotable that can run you through history in a 3-D video type of way? How much information can you truly throw at someone for them to comprehend, or at least appreciate, what you're trying to show them?

One of these days, I would really like to see RFC write out how Merlin's explanations actually go. Usually we get the whole ... experience, we know Merlin is going to rock someone's world, and the story picks up three hours, two pots of hot chocolate, and a plate of sandwiches later with a look of shock on the listeners faces'. I'd like to read an entire chapter of Merlin explaining Earth to a Safeholdian, and to read their reaction to it. To the horrors, and to the accomplishments. The good, and the bad. I know it's just a book, but the word "our" comes to mind. Merlin would be telling our story to someone. What we did, what we accomplished, our history. It'd be interesting to read how a Safeholdian reacts to our history.

We actually got a taste of that in Mutineer's Moon when Dahak was explaining the 4th Imperium to Colin. That was really interesting because in that twist "our" history was the false one, so I doubt we'll ever see it here because "our" history is the true one and most people are bored when things they already know are explained to them as if they have never heard of the concept before.

But I admit I have had several of these inner monologues myself. They usually start off something like this, "Humans are not from here, our true home was called Earth, and we lived there long before the "creation" of the Writ. The stories of our origin are all varied, for once there were many different beliefs, but over the course of (insert however many safeholdian years would equal 200,000 earth years) years we went from lighting fires to protect us from the wild animals to great vessels that could travel the stars themselves. That was unfortunate, because out there we met the Ghababa and they are not keen on having neighbors. A great fleet was assembled to flee our home before complete destruction befell us. But madness because of so much death drove the leader of that fleet, Langhorne, to try and prevent humans from ever venturing out to the stars again.

If the technology and recorded history exists: a few holographic displays showing crew meetings on the spaceship and discussions after ariving at Safehold should be included. If anything, it should help destruct the archangel myth.

TN4994 wrote:If the technology and recorded history exists: a few holographic displays showing crew meetings on the spaceship and discussions after ariving at Safehold should be included. If anything, it should help destruct the archangel myth.

In particular the meeting where Langhorne and Shan-wei are arguing over the future direction of the colony.

fallsfromtrees wrote:

TN4994 wrote:If the technology and recorded history exists: a few holographic displays showing crew meetings on the spaceship and discussions after ariving at Safehold should be included. If anything, it should help destruct the archangel myth.

In particular the meeting where Langhorne and Shan-wei are arguing over the future direction of the colony.

Definitely agree.