Fencing and Honorverse do they go together?

HB of CJ wrote:
I do not understand fully how Honor defeated the best blade mans on Grayson while she herself was beat up and injured. But she did and quickly also.

She also seemed to have little formal training and experience sword fighting. Edged weapons give me the willies. No thank you. I will stick to guns.

I think Honor does OK with a 1911. I know nothing about fencing. I know a little more about shooting. HB of CJ (old coot) Cm. I love this Forum!

He was beaten by his own ego.

cthia wrote:

HB of CJ wrote:
I do not understand fully how Honor defeated the best blade mans on Grayson while she herself was beat up and injured. But she did and quickly also.

She also seemed to have little formal training and experience sword fighting. Edged weapons give me the willies. No thank you. I will stick to guns.

I think Honor does OK with a 1911. I know nothing about fencing. I know a little more about shooting. HB of CJ (old coot) Cm. I love this Forum!

He was beaten by his own ego.

And it never hurts to have the author on your side

cthia wrote:

HB of CJ wrote:I do not understand fully how Honor defeated the best blade mans on Grayson while she herself was beat up and injured. But she did and quickly also.

She also seemed to have little formal training and experience sword fighting. Edged weapons give me the willies. No thank you. I will stick to guns.

I think Honor does OK with a 1911. I know nothing about fencing. I know a little more about shooting. HB of CJ (old coot) Cm. I love this Forum!

He was beaten by his own ego.

fallsfromtrees wrote:And it never hurts to have the author on your side

Sure thing. An author who must have a huge ego as well. Being such a big kid with such a huge sandbox to play in and sooo much sand. And so many kids, playing all day and all thru the night in it. Some occasionally getting angry and throwing sand. Some falling into sand traps - making posting mistakes (me) - and eating sand.

I see your and raise you

JeffEngel wrote:

Hutch wrote:John, based on these two quotes from Flag in Exile, I think Burdette did know that she had had some instruction, but didn't believe a virtual tyro could possibly stand against him, one of the finer swordsman of Grayson.

What he didn't take into account was that he was not facing a beginning swordsperson....he was facing a killer...

Right. The critical difference was that he was a fine sportsman; she is a combat veteran, with all too much experience being in actual, kill-or-die situations, and a natural bent for thriving in them. After that, yes, there's her natural physical gifts and a sense for people in those situations that did not rely on knowing a specific crease in the fencing sense.

He was on his very first field of battle and he thought he had all the edge in a sporting tournament. He'd merit pity if he weren't a child-killing monster.

-------------

To quote Mr Myagi (Karate Kid II) -- "This not tournament"

-- Stewart

JeffEngel wrote:

Hutch wrote:John, based on these two quotes from Flag in Exile, I think Burdette did know that she had had some instruction, but didn't believe a virtual tyro could possibly stand against him, one of the finer swordsman of Grayson.

What he didn't take into account was that he was not facing a beginning swordsperson....he was facing a killer...

Right. The critical difference was that he was a fine sportsman; she is a combat veteran, with all too much experience being in actual, kill-or-die situations, and a natural bent for thriving in them. After that, yes, there's her natural physical gifts and a sense for people in those situations that did not rely on knowing a specific crease in the fencing sense.

He was on his very first field of battle and he thought he had all the edge in a sporting tournament. He'd merit pity if he weren't a child-killing monster.

stewart wrote:-------------

To quote Mr Myagi (Karate Kid II) -- "This not tournament"

-- Stewart

My 13-yr-old niece says he was killed by physics.
He didn't appreciate the gravity of the situation.

Temmy wrote:

SharkHunter wrote:That is a WAY cool quote. So I'll update my question a little bit for the HonorVerse, aka AD 40XX, with Grayson making a 'similar to a katana' sword for the last thousand, but let's assume that they have superior metallurgy vs. medieval Japan, plus the acknowledgement that "modern methods could no doubt create a stronger blade vs. folded steel methods.

Is the "katana shape with a sharpened spine for the outer third" the best bladed weapon SHAPE for use in Grayson duels?

The Grayson sword, is described as being a curved two handed sword with a western crosspiece.It is very similar to a european sword known as the Kreigsmesser.

http://www.albion-swords.com/swords/alb ... knecht.htm

The way a Katana was used had more to do with the length of the weapon..a Katana is about 6-8 inches shorter than european longswords, while weighing about the same. The blade on a Katana is actually quite thick and stocky and not at all fragile. The length of a katana means its much better at performing hanging blocks than it is at gaining crosses.

My practice Katana that I got when I lived in Japan had a weighting / reach advantage over other pieces I've hefted, but that is a cool sword, the Kreigmesser/Knecht, and if I were in the sword game, I'd want one. I have no idea if that would be a "winning sword" against someone skilled with an epee, however.

HB of CJ wrote:I always have wondered who would win with a ONE ON ONE duel. Somebody like Miyamoto Musashi vs somebody like Artemus of the Three Musketeers?

No prior warning. No prior study of each others skills or technique. Somehow placing the Samauri of Edo into the Paris of about 1640 or so?

Who would win? Would both lose? Or would they recognize each other as dangerous men and just make friends and get drunk together? Dunno.

HB of CJ (old coot) I love this Forum! One of the many things the Jesuits brought into the feudal Japans was high grade Spanish steel ingots.

How DO you speeel Samauri? Dunno fur sures!

In "romanized" Japanese it's "samurai", pronounced sah-moo-aye.
As to who'd win, I don't know and lack the skill to discuss it effectively, though I think the heavier sword wins every time.
That's based on my question as to whether any foil could block a "first swing" power stroke against a heavier sword without breaking -- we broke high grade steel epee(s) in our fancing classes with unfortunate frequency. I think that the foil(s)/epee(s) were "gentlemnans swords", and the heavier weapons "soldier's weapons" because I've never seen anything but a bladed sword used in any formal military drills like the Marines, etc., and that's a heritage thing.

Jean-Louis Michel--who among other things served Napolean--is reputed to have won many matches and even deadly duels with a foil over heavier weapons. I have read accounts of his killing/wounding something over a dozen experts and masters from Italy over a regimental honor spat. He was very small and very fast and from what I can gather from accounts wasn't beyond tiring out his opponent by repeated near-closures-then escapes until the opponent with the heavier weapon tired.

As for the original question I blotted out: There is no one answer. Who got the drop? Were both people drawn and set beforehand? How much space is there and what is the topography? Do the rules of combat allow body contact as part of the equation or would any even victory be ruined if such methods were used used? What armor/protection is allowed?

The side condition ONE-ON-ONE is important as well as the longer combat extends in any group combat, the more the advantage switches to those wielding lighter, faster weapons so long as they are actually effective.

SharkHunter wrote:...
In "romanized" Japanese it's "samurai", pronounced sah-moo-aye.
As to who'd win, I don't know and lack the skill to discuss it effectively, though I think the heavier sword wins every time.
That's based on my question as to whether any foil could block a "first swing" power stroke against a heavier sword without breaking -- we broke high grade steel epee(s) in our fancing classes with unfortunate frequency. I think that the foil(s)/epee(s) were "gentlemnans swords", and the heavier weapons "soldier's weapons" because I've never seen anything but a bladed sword used in any formal military drills like the Marines, etc., and that's a heritage thing.

A musketeer isn't going to be using a fencing type foil or an epee. Those are practice and sporting weapons introduced much later.

He will be using a rapier. Rapiers are not floppy and light..they weigh 2.5 to 3 pounds, are four feet long and very very stiff. They are *lethal* duelling weapons, and in my experience have an advantage over conventional two handed swords due to their reach.

Temmy wrote:A musketeer isn't going to be using a fencing type foil or an epee. Those are practice and sporting weapons introduced much later.

He will be using a rapier. Rapiers are not floppy and light..they weigh 2.5 to 3 pounds, are four feet long and very very stiff. They are *lethal* duelling weapons, and in my experience have an advantage over conventional two handed swords due to their reach.

As I remember, rapiers are what the Italians I mention above were wielding. But that book is now back in the university library.