Fencing and Honorverse do they go together?

I never really got exposed to the various fencing sports, although I've tried to watch epee coverage from the last few summer games.

The only sport I ever really played (beyond neighborhood pick-up games) was youth soccer. But I don't think lack of exposure to fencing hurt my appreciation of the Honorverse books

SharkHunter wrote:...
An aside: I was a decent but not competition-level fencer, loved saber -- but back in the day (and to some extent still), I had terrific reflexes. I could REGULARLY score in a "first attack" on my instructor -- who had at least 15 years of experience and had been on intercollegiate teams. What I couldn't do based on pure speed was score in that initial attack frequently enough to win a match to X number of points.
...

I only ever got medals in saber, never foil or epee. Coupla' things.

1. Under saber rules, a parry that connects even if it really doesn't prevent the hit totally gives the (original) defender priority for scoring. Note this happened earlier in FIE where her sensei scores a touch even though, as I remember, she would have killed him at some cost to herself i the actual exchange. Not sure how kendo bouting rules work on this point, but what Weber states here would certainly be the result under FIE saber rules.

2. In saber, I have definitely noticed--especially on vertical cuts--that moment David is talking about. Just as you are about to attack you are pretty much defenseless for that tiny split second.

3. My way of fooling even experienced saber fencers often was to fake a cut and then use the point in a quick lunge. Great for scoring a touch. Useless in any real duel for dealing other than shallow scratches. And, it would lead to probably more damage to me than the opponent in any actual situation.

"FIE"...little pun there I see all of the sudden!

--snip--

jgnfld wrote:2. In saber, I have definitely noticed--especially on vertical cuts--that moment David is talking about. Just as you are about to attack you are pretty much defenseless for that tiny split second; and 3. My way of fooling even experienced saber fencers often was to fake a cut and then use the point in a quick lunge. Great for scoring a touch. Useless in any real duel for dealing other than shallow scratches. And, it would lead to probably more damage to me than the opponent in any actual situation.

--end snip--

Precisely, and I'm realizing that's how I was successful "briefly" against my competition-level instructor: I had all of Honor's advantages in the exact model jgnfld is talking about: reach, speed, and unorthodox style. After my first couple or so based on "unorthodox speed attacks", the only way I had to get points was to fake something that looked like attempting more of the same style speed attacks. But in a combat first strike, if I'd put a samurai sword style stroke to any part of his body or arms, game over.

As an aside, one of the pure killing points for a "pointed sword" back in the day was to the femoral artery, for similar reasons: hit it and the person bleeds out fairly quickly. So a gifted swordsman not only had to block the danger from the edge or a point to the body, but pretty much everywhere. As the samurai swords of the day were overall lighter and stronger/better metal than broadswords, I think that would give a speed stroke in the slash, and weight/length as a blade breaking advantage against an epee or foil.

yes/no?

SharkHunter wrote:As the samurai swords of the day were overall lighter and stronger/better metal than broadswords, I think that would give a speed stroke in the slash, and weight/length as a blade breaking advantage against an epee or foil.

yes/no?

Not exactly...
The problem with Katanas was that the type of iron (and thus steel) used for them was significantly inferior compared to the rest of the world, which is why the Japanese swordmakers had to use such complex processes of folding and beating in order to make the swords. Although the resulting swords were indeed very sharp and surprisingly resilient to damage if used correctly (something which required a lot of training), they were also quite likely to shatter if used in a manner similar to western swords.
This set of articles may help to give you a new perspective on swords.

Michael Everett wrote:...
Not exactly...
The problem with Katanas was that the type of iron (and thus steel) used for them was significantly inferior compared to the rest of the world, which is why the Japanese swordmakers had to use such complex processes of folding and beating in order to make the swords. Although the resulting swords were indeed very sharp and surprisingly resilient to damage if used correctly (something which required a lot of training), they were also quite likely to shatter if used in a manner similar to western swords...

Yes...this is why the parry techniques are so very different from European techniques I have been told. I read somewhere once where a katana could only take single digit parries on the cutting edge before being rendered pretty useless.

Michael Everett wrote:

SharkHunter wrote:As the samurai swords of the day were overall lighter and stronger/better metal than broadswords, I think that would give a speed stroke in the slash, and weight/length as a blade breaking advantage against an epee or foil.

yes/no?

Not exactly... snip ...
This set of articles may help to give you a new perspective on swords.

That is a WAY cool quote. So I'll update my question a little bit for the HonorVerse, aka AD 40XX, with Grayson making a 'similar to a katana' sword for the last thousand, but let's assume that they have superior metallurgy vs. medieval Japan, plus the acknowledgement that "modern methods could no doubt create a stronger blade vs. folded steel methods.

Is the "katana shape with a sharpened spine for the outer third" the best bladed weapon SHAPE for use in Grayson duels?

If I was to bring a sword to a fight it would be 3 to 3 1/2 ft long straight and about 2 1/2 to 3 inches wide with a spring steel blade with a very hard steel around it and have a slightly wider area at the far end a saber style bell guard with a crosspiece off the back.

One thing to understand about fencing is how bloody lethal it is..for everyone. It doesn't matter how experienced and good you are, one little mistake is enough to get you killed.

In the Honor and Burdette duel, Burdette made the mistake of underestimating Honors speed and intent. I do HEMA and Haedong Gumdo,which is basically Toyama Ryu kenjutsu with a Korean paintjob. In the sword arts I do we have a basic rule of thumb..the high guard counters the low guard, the low guard counters the middle guard, the middle guard counters the high guard.

Honor was in a low guard. Burdette was in a high guard. normally Burdette would have had the advantage, as geometry and gravity means his blade would reach Honors head before honor could bring her sword up to block. If she tried to attack from a low guard, a double kill is likely. Burdette likely thought Honor would try to block the attack from a low guard, which is a bad bet for a normal person.

Honor wasn't interested in blocking. Being genetically engineered, she had far more speed than Burdette. So as Burdette closed, expecting an attempted block, she instead cut upwards with superior speed, killing burdette before he could get the afterblow.

I always have wondered who would win with a ONE ON ONE duel. Somebody like Miyamoto Musashi vs somebody like Artemus of the Three Musketeers?

No prior warning. No prior study of each others skills or technique. Somehow placing the Samauri of Edo into the Paris of about 1640 or so?

Who would win? Would both lose? Or would they recognize each other as dangerous men and just make friends and get drunk together? Dunno.

HB of CJ (old coot) I love this Forum! One of the many things the Jesuits brought into the feudal Japans was high grade Spanish steel ingots.

How DO you speeel Samauri? Dunno fur sures!

SharkHunter wrote:That is a WAY cool quote. So I'll update my question a little bit for the HonorVerse, aka AD 40XX, with Grayson making a 'similar to a katana' sword for the last thousand, but let's assume that they have superior metallurgy vs. medieval Japan, plus the acknowledgement that "modern methods could no doubt create a stronger blade vs. folded steel methods.

Is the "katana shape with a sharpened spine for the outer third" the best bladed weapon SHAPE for use in Grayson duels?

The Grayson sword, is described as being a curved two handed sword with a western crosspiece.It is very similar to a european sword known as the Kreigsmesser.

http://www.albion-swords.com/swords/alb ... knecht.htm


The way a Katana was used had more to do with the length of the weapon..a Katana is about 6-8 inches shorter than european longswords, while weighing about the same. The blade on a Katana is actually quite thick and stocky and not at all fragile. The length of a katana means its much better at performing hanging blocks than it is at gaining crosses.