Fencing and Honorverse do they go together?

I've always read that passage as meaning that Burdette expected Honor not to have the faintest idea of fencing and thought he'd simply disarm her and then kill her. Whereas she'd actually been trained in sword-fighting so just killed him without bothering to parry his attempted attack.
Cheers
John

John Prigent wrote:I've always read that passage as meaning that Burdette expected Honor not to have the faintest idea of fencing and thought he'd simply disarm her and then kill her. Whereas she'd actually been trained in sword-fighting so just killed him without bothering to parry his attempted attack.
Cheers
John

John, based on these two quotes from Flag in Exile, I think Burdette did know that she had had some instruction, but didn't believe a virtual tyro could possibly stand against him, one of the finer swordsman of Grayson.

What he didn't take into account was that he was not facing a beginning swordsperson....he was facing a killer...

But the low-guard, as his very first swordmaster had taught him, was a position of weakness. It invited attack rather than positioning to attack, and his sword rose into the high-guard as he took his own stance, weight spread evenly, right foot cocked and slightly back, and his hilt just above eye-level so that he could see her clearly while his blade hovered to strike.

An edge of puzzlement flickered in Burdette's mind as she simply stood there. He, too, had been taught about the dominance and the crease, and he'd used both to his advantage in many competitions. But he was certain she had no more idea of what his crease was than he did of hers; surely she didn't think she could somehow deduce it at this late date!

Or perhaps she did. Perhaps she was too new to the sword to have sorted out all the metaphysical claptrap from the practical reality, but William Fitzclarence was too experienced to allow himself to be distracted from the real and practical when he held a live blade.

As for me and fencing, I have a nice 6-ft Cedar fence around my property. As for the art of fencing, I tend to prefer the Indiana Jones school....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3I_Ds2ytz4o

Hutch wrote:John, based on these two quotes from Flag in Exile, I think Burdette did know that she had had some instruction, but didn't believe a virtual tyro could possibly stand against him, one of the finer swordsman of Grayson.

What he didn't take into account was that he was not facing a beginning swordsperson....he was facing a killer...

Right. The critical difference was that he was a fine sportsman; she is a combat veteran, with all too much experience being in actual, kill-or-die situations, and a natural bent for thriving in them. After that, yes, there's her natural physical gifts and a sense for people in those situations that did not rely on knowing a specific crease in the fencing sense.

He was on his very first field of battle and he thought he had all the edge in a sporting tournament. He'd merit pity if he weren't a child-killing monster.

BrigadeΔ wrote:Sports wise I do only 2 crew and fencing with my favorite being fencing. How many of the rest of you fence, and if so which weapon? I personally am an épéeist and avoid foil if possible (to many rules) but still am I alone in that here?
Note; it took under a minute for me to realize I had spelled together with an A instead of the E in my title, thanks disgraphia

I used to fence a lot, mainly foil and sabre. But had to give it up a few years ago.

JeffEngel wrote:Right. The critical difference was that he was a fine sportsman; she is a combat veteran, with all too much experience being in actual, kill-or-die situations, and a natural bent for thriving in them. After that, yes, there's her natural physical gifts and a sense for people in those situations that did not rely on knowing a specific crease in the fencing sense.

He was on his very first field of battle and he thought he had all the edge in a sporting tournament. He'd merit pity if he weren't a child-killing monster.

Not to mention that, Satan-worshipping whore or not, she was still only a woman.

JeffEngel wrote:The critical difference was that he was a fine sportsman; she is a combat veteran, with all too much experience being in actual, kill-or-die situations, and a natural bent for thriving in them. After that, yes, there's her natural physical gifts and a sense for people in those situations that did not rely on knowing a specific crease in the fencing sense.

There is also the fact that she had been preparing for such a moment for months. It was one of the reasons she started learning the sword. Whereas Burdette never considered the possibility until a few minutes before the duel. For Burdette the duel came as a surprise.

Duels with Japanese swords are a much different affair than European swords. In particular, as Weber notes in FIE a single stroke is much more often the whole duel.

Body contact rules and practice are way different as well. Parries and beats are somewhat different, though binds are more the same excepting the followthrough to body contact.

niethil wrote:

JeffEngel wrote:The critical difference was that he was a fine sportsman; she is a combat veteran, with all too much experience being in actual, kill-or-die situations, and a natural bent for thriving in them. After that, yes, there's her natural physical gifts and a sense for people in those situations that did not rely on knowing a specific crease in the fencing sense.

There is also the fact that she had been preparing for such a moment for months. It was one of the reasons she started learning the sword. Whereas Burdette never considered the possibility until a few minutes before the duel. For Burdette the duel came as a surprise.

niethil wrote:

JeffEngel wrote:The critical difference was that he was a fine sportsman; she is a combat veteran, with all too much experience being in actual, kill-or-die situations, and a natural bent for thriving in them. After that, yes, there's her natural physical gifts and a sense for people in those situations that did not rely on knowing a specific crease in the fencing sense.

There is also the fact that she had been preparing for such a moment for months. It was one of the reasons she started learning the sword. Whereas Burdette never considered the possibility until a few minutes before the duel. For Burdette the duel came as a surprise.

Well... I think she took to it primarily as another form of exercise, something to keep her mind off things and keep in shape. That it could have a role in fulfilling her duty as Champion - knowing her, it was at least at the back of her mind, but she probably wasn't expecting it either for those months.

Fighting for one's life, that certainly was a surprise for him and another day at the office for her.

Correct, Jeff. But what he didn't know was that she'd been teaching her own swordmaster the moves she already knew from a different school of swordplay. I other words, he expected her to be a typical novice. Her move was based on those, with a quick kill in mind not a scoring of points which was what he was used to. And yes, she was expecting to kill while he expected to 'play' with her and kill at leisure.
Cheers
John

JeffEngel wrote:

Hutch wrote:John, based on these two quotes from Flag in Exile, I think Burdette did know that she had had some instruction, but didn't believe a virtual tyro could possibly stand against him, one of the finer swordsman of Grayson.

What he didn't take into account was that he was not facing a beginning swordsperson....he was facing a killer...

Right. The critical difference was that he was a fine sportsman; she is a combat veteran, with all too much experience being in actual, kill-or-die situations, and a natural bent for thriving in them. After that, yes, there's her natural physical gifts and a sense for people in those situations that did not rely on knowing a specific crease in the fencing sense.

He was on his very first field of battle and he thought he had all the edge in a sporting tournament. He'd merit pity if he weren't a child-killing monster.

There's another critical factor in Honor's win over Burdette that I think we've overlooked: who she was training with and her fight goal, which RFC gives us.

An aside: I was a decent but not competition-level fencer, loved saber -- but back in the day (and to some extent still), I had terrific reflexes. I could REGULARLY score in a "first attack" on my instructor -- who had at least 15 years of experience and had been on intercollegiate teams. What I couldn't do based on pure speed was score in that initial attack frequently enough to win a match to X number of points.

The textev says that she didn't then or ever consciously identify Burdette's "crease", but that she reacted the moment she identified that his focus was not on defending himself." Consider that Burdette's training, strategy and expectations is that he will dominate her will, find Honor's weakness and then kill her, all which require thinking and analysis, and then a victory. He never does figure her "void" out, but attacks anyway, thinking about things instead of "just doing".

Tactically, Burdette was beaten the moment she put her sword in a low position (upstroke, only a single hand required) because Honor's strategy is "the first fastest stroke usually wins". Honor's sole focus was to kill Burdette in a single stroke. Her sword position forced Burdette to go high -- his personality would go for a two handed power stroke thinking to overpower her "low position block" and then go for the kill.

Just the neurotransmission time required for Burdette to make a decision mentally and then execute that power stroke means he was already a dead man walking. You can't bring the sword down with both arms without tensing and a tiny wind up. The moment he focused on that tensing, she acted and all she had to do was slash up. That's a pure "win or die" reflex move, which she knew she could pull off.

Beheading him after she'd cut him stem to stern was actually the easiest thing she had to do, simply switching her grip, and then -- as the text says, applying all the power of her body to the now reversed full power killing stroke.