David Weber on Frigates, Part 3

It looks like there was a faulty assumption that Cheopsis made. This was that you would have a reasonable chance of detecting a spider if you only sent out a small force to investigate. He also assumed that you could track a spider for a long time undetected and ambush it later.

There was also the assumpion, probably false, that they would be facing large numbers of spiders. The Detweilers are too big to be available in large numbers and there are only twenty-eight Sharks.

It looks like you have to send out a fair sized force to have a reasonable chance of finding a spider. If you do that you may as well bring along the force required to kill it. And with reasonable sized forces larger ships are more cost effective.

I can see an argument for a new type of reconnaisamce drone. I would expect that less endurance would be reconnaisance of hostile systems. And I would think that there are fewer types of signals that they would be looking for. This might make it possible to build special pupose drones that are small enough to fit in missile pods or even missile tubes. Only DW knows yet whether this is possible.

My observation is that the Manties just recalled hundreds or thousands of merchantmen. Surely if you want an unarmed ship to go out and dump piles of RD drones into the great beyond an 8 megaton freighter you already own and don't have to staff (aside perhaps from one naval liason officer) is better than an 80 kton frigate you need to build new.

Just a thought.

robert132 wrote:David is probably getting just a little annoyed over this fixation on frigates.

You and he are correct, for the amount of effort, expense and numbers required, to be able to "smother" a spherical area outside a hyper limit out to a distance approaching six light months with any kind of ship just isn't doable. Hundreds if not thousands of ships would be needed in order to keep sufficient numbers on station while about 60% are in some kind of upkeep, resupply or crew rest.

For reconnisance a frigate isn't my first choice either for the same reasons you give, it isn't big enough to handle the numbers of recon drones needed and still ship any offensive armament.

If you must have a dedicated reconnisance or scout ship you will probably need something around the size and mass of a light cruiser fitted to act as tender to a number of RD's and carry sufficient computer power to process the "take" properly. The ship would also need the FTL comms capability to properly utilize the RDs and (my thought) a top of the line stealth capability for her own protection and the ability to alter the parameters of her wedge, electronic signature and transponders to appear as something other than a threat, assume the guise of a merchantman for example. And also the "legs" necessary to run like hell if found out.

Such a beast would be very expensive and not lightly placed in harm's way.

Be well sir.

Howdy Robert 132,

Quite right.

You've been a voice of reason on this subject, and I salute you for it.

Coming to this thread late, I am impressed that it has generated at least 4 posts I know of from HWKABSM (he who knows all but suggests most).

Most people would be satisfied with that, let alone the naval history and honorverse data-dumps.

Granted the MWW uses Dragon to avoid straining his wrist, but the precision of expression indicates much more editing than he usually has time for.

Either he's just finished another book [HURRAY!!], or this has taken him away from finishing another book [BOO!!], so we fans should ask ourselves if this was a profitable use of the HWKABSM's time.

As much as most forum members enjoyed this discussion, I have to wonder despite enjoying any post from the MWW, whether it was worth his time.

Whether these proposed ships were called frigates or scouts (being only defensively armed), this topic was an old discussion at the bar after AAC, and suggestions included dedicated hyperspace warships (emphasizing energy weapons) monitoring sensor buoys dropped in hyper to extend the warning time to the system in question.
Despite the increased coverage, the vast effort wasn't considered worth it.

HH thought little of Horrible Hemphill's cavalier dismissal of the high LAC casualties she envisioned; so I imagine HH's consideration regarding building ships one intended to lose in job lots simply performing its duty, and the ship's crews attitude toward their ship, their assigned duty, and their job performance.
If you were so weak and expendable, would you want to find such formidable prey?

Since thousands are an obvious waste, but around 20 is a significant improvement in detection and localization for a sphere two light month's in diameter (MoH textev), the level of exasperation the HWKABSM might feel when the traditional preference of the RMN is questioned.

This is way too long, and I, falling asleep.

Bye,
L

I think the point here is that any rapid reaction recon ships to hunt spider drive ships are going to need a hyperdrive, military grade impellers, plenty of recon drones, the FTL comm to monitor the take from those recon drones, and battle management capability to interpret the data. At this point you already have a ship that is as expensive as a DD and probably as large. Why not make it a DD? In fact you might need something CL sized.

This is of course assuming that your recon ships are backed up by other ships or system defense pods to do the actual killing with very long range Apollo.

namelessfly wrote:I think the point here is that any rapid reaction recon ships to hunt spider drive ships are going to need a hyperdrive, military grade impellers, plenty of recon drones, the FTL comm to monitor the take from those recon drones, and battle management capability to interpret the data. At this point you already have a ship that is as expensive as a DD and probably as large. Why not make it a DD? In fact you might need something CL sized.

This is of course assuming that your recon ships are backed up by other ships or system defense pods to do the actual killing with very long range Apollo.

I think that DW is thinking of an LAC swarm killing the spider drive ships. There is a question over how effective missile homing systems will be against spider drive ships. There is no question about how effective LAC grasers will be.

If the Mantys and co can attached 15+ pods to Roland class Hulls, than they can attach many more RD on it.

Why waste resource on a dedicated Drone Carrier, with no Battle value?

johnboy wrote:I did at first start off thinking that frigates would have utility at about 100,000 tonnes, but the key igure surely is that at 70 to 80% of costs for a Roland they are not cost effective. If it was 50% well that's another matter. They are not that effective as system pickets either, less effective in combat and seemingly, from what has been written, can not be produced any much by yards that do not normally do military construction.

Does that leave them any utility? Seemingly little in the current environment. Of course situations change. The only way that I could see them being used effectively(enabling other ships being reassigned to other roles) was to perhaps have a few built as training platforms to utilise modern weapons training.However, with the plethora of older DD's in reserve it would probably be easier to refit and refurbish these ships for these roles.I had also wondered if ships like the Nat Turner class were being built in private shipyards(like for Torch)that are not large enough to produce larger ships: if Manticore would order these as a stopgap until their normal production facilities are restored(on the something is better than nothing case)? This might be some sort of logic but my understanding is that there are many older DD's and CL's still in reserve, although these would be much more manpower intensive,which is also a problem.

As far as situations changing, roles that are not present now but could always develop are:

1) Would make good platforms for "deniable" "pirate" attacks

2) In a situation awash with "old style" pirates they would have some utility

Neither of these situations exist now.

Isn't 100,000 tons a destroyer even by modern standards, Even the origional hms fearless was only 88,000 tons I am not sure how big a roland is but it can not be much bigger and I think that it would be a much better ship to have

All the endless talk about frigates reminds me of a dog that lived on the road that led to where we fished when I was growing up.

The German Shepard in question loved to chase cars. It didn't matter if you drove just out of sight and turned around, he'd chase you. After I got my license, I was going fishing and drove by, so, naturally, he chased me. Just to see what would happen, I stopped in the middle of the road. The dog had no idea of what to do next.

Frigates remind me of that dog.

It can run down pretty much anything. The problem is, when it catches its' prey, it really can't do much to it. Any warship that isn't another frigate has it out gunned and will turn it into burning plasma in pretty short order.

Since this thread has returned from the dead, I would like to add one comment.

It is well-established that the MWW does not see a place for Frigates in the Honorverse at the present time.

So, of course, in Cauldron of Ghosts the only major combat actions is performed by.....RTN Frigates.

I'm grinning even as I type this.

Hutch wrote:It is well-established that the MWW does not see a place for Frigates in the Honorverse at the present time.

So, of course, in Cauldron of Ghosts the only major combat actions is performed by.....RTN Frigates.

I'm grinning even as I type this.

He did not see a place for frigates among major navies. The Torch Navy kinda isn't "major".