Considerations about naval designs

We have first ironclads coming online soon, so what about creating proper battleships in next generation? I'm thinking about something similar to KGV or Bismarck, they were great designs and with Merlin help Charis could upgrade them even further, but we don't have access to electricity so turrets would be pain in the ass to turn them. But for that we need diesel engines, so any freak hit can't easily destroy boilers and boil whole crew. Also diesels are better for huge ships they're more compact and they use less fuel per mile. Another useful design could be very small ship no bigger than 10 kT, but very fast so we could use it to hunt any privateers and even destroy normal fleet. KHVII design is very powerful, but for our standards relatively slow and it could only be use as normal battleship. My smaller design should have enough speed to be used as destroyer and enough armor and weapons to be used as battle cruiser. Building any submarines for long time is very risky thing, we have a lot of very big and nasty creatures underwater and they could try to eat that ship. Another thing needed for submarine is sonar and radar so it could sail safely, without it, it's possible to sail underwater but it's very dangerous, cus we don't know where are we sailing.
Now it's time for questions about weapons for ships.
Do we have any guns for medium and short range fight? Something similar to 150-100 mm guns used on most of battleships and battle cruisers as secondary weapon and to fight lighter ships. If I'm correct Charis ironclads will only have big 360 mm guns, they're nice and powerful, but useless against something very fast and small. Another thing is that 406 mm guns are a little heavier but have much bigger range and they're much more powerful.
My last question for today do we have any kind of light guns for our ships? Same as 76-100 mm guns used on most capital ships during WWII, they're great if we have any kind of boarding action and to destroy one thing, without destruction of whole town.
What about designing something similar to 4x20 mm Oerlikon or Bofors guns? They're great at really short range and could be used to suppress any infantry on enemy deck.
How hard is it to creat good diesel engine for ship? If I'm right 99% of current ships are using diesel engine, only 1% is using nuclear reactors and other ways to generate power.

Draken wrote:How hard is it to creat good diesel engine for ship? If I'm right 99% of current ships are using diesel engine, only 1% is using nuclear reactors and other ways to generate power.

Actually, I'm pretty sure there are more gas turbines and steam turbines than there are Diesels.

Your whole proposal sounds like a rationalization for Diesel technology, but Charis already has Hydraulic, Pneumatic, and Steam technology to do things like turn turrets/barbettes, and the next logical step for warships is Steam Turbine technology because turbines are faster than Diesels.

Weird Harold wrote:

Draken wrote:How hard is it to creat good diesel engine for ship? If I'm right 99% of current ships are using diesel engine, only 1% is using nuclear reactors and other ways to generate power.

Actually, I'm pretty sure there are more gas turbines and steam turbines than there are Diesels.

Your whole proposal sounds like a rationalization for Diesel technology, but Charis already has Hydraulic, Pneumatic, and Steam technology to do things like turn turrets/barbettes, and the next logical step for warships is Steam Turbine technology because turbines are faster than Diesels.

That's true, but diesel won't boil your crew and boilers could do that. But steam turbine instead of steam engine is much safer thing. Also if I'm correct we could kill two birds with one stone. One use steam to power our ship and two use the same steam to move turrets and everything else.

Charis just started using steam engines and they barely squeaked past the Proscriptions. A diesel internal combustion engine would not make it past the Proscriptions as far as I know. From the look of things, there will be a reasonably long use of steam engines, first using coal, then oil (diesel or what not) as fuel to heat the water which is them used to propel the ship. Also remember this; until they can find a way to do away with the orbital bombardment system, they have to avoid all electrical systems and diesel is too close to using electricity. To power things on warships, they are going to need steam power to power hydraulics.

A side note, what will they use for lighting in the new warships? If electricity and the light bulb is off limits, doesn't this mean that they will have to use gas or oil lamps inside the ships just to be able to see?

Draken wrote:That's true, but diesel won't boil your crew and boilers could do that. But steam turbine instead of steam engine is much safer thing. Also if I'm correct we could kill two birds with one stone. One use steam to power our ship and two use the same steam to move turrets and everything else.

It would be much safer to use steam to drive hydraulic or pneumatic pumps and use hydraulics or pneumatic motors for all of the moveable things that need power assist.

Of course, all of that could be done without any advance in propulsion technology and eliminate a rush to transmissions, high-tech lubricants, stronger metals for bearings and turbine blades, etc.

The King Harald VIIs are a sufficient edge in naval technology that Charis can take time to learn whatever lessons they can teach before pushing technology a step or ten further. Perhaps even sufficient to maintain tech superiority long enough for the Proscriptions to be overturned and the OBS to be neutralized? Then the restriction on electricity/electronics will be irrelevant and truly modern warships (eg space ships) can be built in job lots.

Zakharra wrote:A side note, what will they use for lighting in the new warships? If electricity and the light bulb is off limits, doesn't this mean that they will have to use gas or oil lamps inside the ships just to be able to see?

I expect that whatever lighting they've used at sea under sail or oar will be used until something better comes along; Gaslights would be tempting, but what kind of risk would that create in piping a potential fire/explosion hazard into every compartment of a ship?

Draken wrote:We have first ironclads coming online soon, so what about creating proper battleships in next generation? I'm thinking about something similar to KGV or Bismarck, they were great designs and with Merlin help Charis could upgrade them even further, but we don't have access to electricity so turrets would be pain in the ass to turn them. But for that we need diesel engines, so any freak hit can't easily destroy boilers and boil whole crew. Also diesels are better for huge ships they're more compact and they use less fuel per mile. Another useful design could be very small ship no bigger than 10 kT, but very fast so we could use it to hunt any privateers and even destroy normal fleet. KHVII design is very powerful, but for our standards relatively slow and it could only be use as normal battleship. My smaller design should have enough speed to be used as destroyer and enough armor and weapons to be used as battle cruiser. Building any submarines for long time is very risky thing, we have a lot of very big and nasty creatures underwater and they could try to eat that ship. Another thing needed for submarine is sonar and radar so it could sail safely, without it, it's possible to sail underwater but it's very dangerous, cus we don't know where are we sailing.
Now it's time for questions about weapons for ships.
Do we have any guns for medium and short range fight? Something similar to 150-100 mm guns used on most of battleships and battle cruisers as secondary weapon and to fight lighter ships. If I'm correct Charis ironclads will only have big 360 mm guns, they're nice and powerful, but useless against something very fast and small. Another thing is that 406 mm guns are a little heavier but have much bigger range and they're much more powerful.
My last question for today do we have any kind of light guns for our ships? Same as 76-100 mm guns used on most capital ships during WWII, they're great if we have any kind of boarding action and to destroy one thing, without destruction of whole town.
What about designing something similar to 4x20 mm Oerlikon or Bofors guns? They're great at really short range and could be used to suppress any infantry on enemy deck.
How hard is it to creat good diesel engine for ship? If I'm right 99% of current ships are using diesel engine, only 1% is using nuclear reactors and other ways to generate power.

Submarines are a long way off. Without battery power, *and that requires electricity) you aren't going to be going very far under the water (either depth or distance), although Charis has pretty good charts for the surface of Safehold.

Zakharra wrote:Charis just started using steam engines and they barely squeaked past the Proscriptions. A diesel internal combustion engine would not make it past the Proscriptions as far as I know. From the look of things, there will be a reasonably long use of steam engines, first using coal, then oil (diesel or what not) as fuel to heat the water which is them used to propel the ship. Also remember this; until they can find a way to do away with the orbital bombardment system, they have to avoid all electrical systems and diesel is too close to using electricity. To power things on warships, they are going to need steam power to power hydraulics.

A side note, what will they use for lighting in the new warships? If electricity and the light bulb is off limits, doesn't this mean that they will have to use gas or oil lamps inside the ships just to be able to see?

Steam is really against the proscriptions, beyond the traditional allowable sources of power of wind, water and muscle. Father Paityr's attestation was what he himself referred to as "chop logic" which served as a justification for approving it.

Gunpowder is against the proscriptions, using an explosion to drive a musket ball, bullet, shell or whatever into a target --human, animal or whatever. Gunpowder was approved as the behest of someone in Harchong, of all places, because they wanted to use the explosions as a tool in building a canal. They probably applied a generous bribe to get the approval they wanted.

So now comes diesel. It proposes to use an explosion to drive a cylinder rather than build a canal or drive a bullet. Instead of gunpowder, it proposes to use diesel. Is it against the proscriptions? Yes, but probably no more so than innovations which are either in long standing use or have been recently approved.

Will the temple approve? Obviously not. Besides, no bribe is being offered and the Temple is a bit miffed with Father Paityr, Charis et. al. But if the decision is made for Charis to use diesel, Father Paityr can use more of his chop logic for the approval.

The thing is, the proscriptions have been in the process of erosion long before Merlin came along. He merely accelerated the process.

Don

n7axw wrote:

Zakharra wrote:Charis just started using steam engines and they barely squeaked past the Proscriptions. A diesel internal combustion engine would not make it past the Proscriptions as far as I know. From the look of things, there will be a reasonably long use of steam engines, first using coal, then oil (diesel or what not) as fuel to heat the water which is them used to propel the ship. Also remember this; until they can find a way to do away with the orbital bombardment system, they have to avoid all electrical systems and diesel is too close to using electricity. To power things on warships, they are going to need steam power to power hydraulics.

A side note, what will they use for lighting in the new warships? If electricity and the light bulb is off limits, doesn't this mean that they will have to use gas or oil lamps inside the ships just to be able to see?

Steam is really against the proscriptions, beyond the traditional allowable sources of power of wind, water and muscle. Father Paityr's attestation was what he himself referred to as "chop logic" which served as a justification for approving it.

Gunpowder is against the proscriptions, using an explosion to drive a musket ball, bullet, shell or whatever into a target --human, animal or whatever. Gunpowder was approved as the behest of someone in Harchong, of all places, because they wanted to use the explosions as a tool in building a canal. They probably applied a generous bribe to get the approval they wanted.

So now comes diesel. It proposes to use an explosion to drive a cylinder rather than build a canal or drive a bullet. Instead of gunpowder, it proposes to use diesel. Is it against the proscriptions? Yes, but probably no more so than innovations which are either in long standing use or have been recently approved.

Will the temple approve? Obviously not. Besides, no bribe is being offered and the Temple is a bit miffed with Father Paityr, Charis et. al. But if the decision is made for Charis to use diesel, Father Paityr can use more of his chop logic for the approval.

The thing is, the proscriptions have been in the process of erosion long before Merlin came along. He merely accelerated the process.

Don

In what way is steam a violation of the proscriptions? It's just water converted into wind, both of which are approved.

Re-read the text in HFAF, especially that conversation between Father Paityr and Howsmyn. In addition, it was discussed by Cayleb, Sharleyan and Merlin as being wwaayy beyond the proscriptions...

Don

Lighting without electricity, most likely candle lanterns as both gas lines for gas lamps and oil in lamp fonts is fire hazard.

For powering the ship compressed air fairly low pressure say 100 PSI or less piped about the ship is less dangerous than high pressure steam you can run steam engines and small turbines to power things like turrets, capstans, hydraulic pumps winches, exhaust fans and, blowers on air.

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