Chemistry and misc. stuff concerning it.

n7axw wrote:Ok, I remember that. But although there would be fairly large quantities of that available, it would seem to me that at least given the methods currently available for getting at it, it would be pretty labor intensive to harvest in quantity which really doesn't seem like a good answer either.

Given the prevailing limits on production, "Muscles, Wind or Water," you're likely correct. However, Charis is moving beyond those restrictions and should see corresponding improvements in harvesting and processing as Steam power spreads (and/or other power sources.)

Even improved mechanical "horse"-drawn reapers, such as Charis exports to mainland farms for grain crops, will show increased production over hand reaping and processing.

Your correct about the need for electricity for large scale production of acids. The problem is that all modern explosives including nitrocellulose need these acids in quantity specifically concentrated 98%+ sulfuric from which you make the nitric which is used to nitrate the organic molecule.

Cracking oil is not difficult, primarily a function of temperature and pressure with a decent surface catalyst.

Synthetic hydrocarbons are totally out of the realm of possibility you need a modern petrochemical plant they are synthesized from smaller pure molecules which is way more difficult than a basic topping unit which is all you need to get basic fuels

Kerosene, #1 diesel, arctic diesel and jet fuel are almost identical. The only real difference is percent of lighter ends and gel point temperature. All will run a Diesel engine and a jet turbine.
However they are not a " higher grade" than gasoline. Fuels are graded by flash point, average molecular weight and energy content. Bunker C is a low grade fuel oil used by ships. After the various grades of fuel oils comes the diesel grades, then the gasolines including 110 low lead which is the highest grade still manufactured and used by piston driven aircraft. Finally there are the liquid gas fractions and natural gasses like butane, propane ethane and methane.

You can get all of these from crude oil production because it contains lots of stuff. However biologically produced oils typically only contain a narrow fraction because they are produced for a specific purpose by a living organism.

Thus you can make biodiesel from vegetable oil but not bio gasoline because there are very few aromatics in vegetable oil.

Draken wrote:

Tanstaafl wrote:

The fuel required for big ship diesel engines is not the same as the stuf used in Mercedes luxury limos.

Ship diesel engine will run on almost anything and normal fuel us worst grade effect of cracking, if you don't have anything better it would go on kerosene which is highest grade product of cracking and aircraft are using it as fuel. Gasoline is medium grade product of cracking.
=====Uptade=====
For lubricant we can use organic oil, but not everywhere. Production of synthetic lubricant shouldn't be that hard, it will be nuisance but not hard.

Kerosene and gasoline are products of distilling crude oil. Cracking is a process that breaks long chain hydrocarbons into short chain ones, this raises the octane rating of the final product. Just distilling crude oil you get a gasoline with an octane rating of around 70, cracking is then used to raise the octane rating up to 90.
Electricity is not needed to refine (distill) crude oil into usable products such as kerosene, gasoline, and diesel. Cracking doesn't need electricity either as greater pressure in the distilling process will produce cracked hydrocarbons. When electricity and the spark plug gasoline became the fuel of choice for automobiles and diesel was considered a waste product by many refineries and sold very cheap.
Low octane gasoline will work just fine in a internal combustion engine it just doesn't combust as evenly.
Of course once distilling crude oil becomes common then some smart hillbilly will adapt it to distill alcohol and kick start the liquor and spirits industry.

Here's a link to a nice page on gasoline distillation, http://www.elmhurst.edu/~chm/vchembook/514gasoline.html

MPCatchup wrote:Of course once distilling crude oil becomes common then some smart hillbilly will adapt it to distill alcohol and kick start the liquor and spirits industry.

I think it has been specifically mentioned that safehold was given distillation right from the beginning, and if not it has been clearly mentioned that whiskey and other distilled alcohols are widely consumed (think Chisolmian Whiskey).

As the previous couple posters have mentioned there is no need to use electricity to refine crude oil. Also mentioned is diesel and its cousins ease of refining. But even extremely crude refining will yield many wonderful products, and as has always proven the case there is an incentive to turn today's by-product into tomorrow's product.
I think bunker oil and kerosene would the first obvious choices of target products. Bunker oil is more energy dense than coal and would significantly reduce the need for coaling stations around the world. I remember reading that when the British switched their navy over to fuel oil from coal they experienced a several knot increase in speed because the oil would burn much more efficiently than the coal they had used previously (that was one of their several key technological edges over the German High Seas fleet in WWI). And kerosene could prove even more valuable for lighting, kicking off the huge productive increase that accompanied widespread (and cheap) lighting.
Other valuable products available with minimal refining could be tars, I don't think that Siddarmark wouldn't see the advantage that asphalt would bring to their already advanced road building techniques. Petroleum Jelly (Vaseline) is a useful stabilizing agent and base for all sort of products, and is a classic example of a waste product being turned into a thousand useful (and profitable) products.
Also the Haber-Bosch process can be conducted without electricity by using a steam reformer (burning methane gas in the presence of hot high pressure steam)instead of electrolyzing water. The ability to generate effective fertilizers on industrial scales set off the green revolution here on earth allowing us to (so far) feed the global population.

Aegis99 wrote:

MPCatchup wrote:Of course once distilling crude oil becomes common then some smart hillbilly will adapt it to distill alcohol and kick start the liquor and spirits industry.

I think it has been specifically mentioned that safehold was given distillation right from the beginning, and if not it has been clearly mentioned that whiskey and other distilled alcohols are widely consumed (think Chisolmian Whiskey).

As the previous couple posters have mentioned there is no need to use electricity to refine crude oil. Also mentioned is diesel and its cousins ease of refining. But even extremely crude refining will yield many wonderful products, and as has always proven the case there is an incentive to turn today's by-product into tomorrow's product.
I think bunker oil and kerosene would the first obvious choices of target products. Bunker oil is more energy dense than coal and would significantly reduce the need for coaling stations around the world. I remember reading that when the British switched their navy over to fuel oil from coal they experienced a several knot increase in speed because the oil would burn much more efficiently than the coal they had used previously (that was one of their several key technological edges over the German High Seas fleet in WWI). And kerosene could prove even more valuable for lighting, kicking off the huge productive increase that accompanied widespread (and cheap) lighting.
Other valuable products available with minimal refining could be tars, I don't think that Siddarmark wouldn't see the advantage that asphalt would bring to their already advanced road building techniques. Petroleum Jelly (Vaseline) is a useful stabilizing agent and base for all sort of products, and is a classic example of a waste product being turned into a thousand useful (and profitable) products.
Also the Haber-Bosch process can be conducted without electricity by using a steam reformer (burning methane gas in the presence of hot high pressure steam)instead of electrolyzing water. The ability to generate effective fertilizers on industrial scales set off the green revolution here on earth allowing us to (so far) feed the global population.

Very little in the field of fractionation requires any electrical power at all. Prior to the 1960's it was unusual to find any electrical power used in most refineries other than for lighting due to the risk of fire. Steam was widely used for both heating and to drive pumps until the 1970's and steam heating is still common. Direct fired heaters are also used for the higher temperature fractions. You can generally assume that unless you need electrolysis for feed stocks like potassium and aluminum then electricity is optional. (Coal tar fractions are useful too, and the coking process used for making steel produces prodigious quantities).
The Haber-Bosch process, as implemented currently, uses natural gas as a feed stock which is burnt/reacted at high pressure with compressed air and steam and an iron catalyst replacing the osmium used originally(but uranium works better). No electricity needed except generally the plants produce a significant level of excess power in operation so you need to soak this up. (The Compressor/Expanders usually have a motor-generator coupled for this reason - motor for start-up & shutdown purge, generator for operation).

MPCatchup wrote:.
Low octane gasoline will work just fine in a internal combustion engine it just doesn't combust as evenly.
Of course once distilling crude oil becomes common then some smart hillbilly will adapt it to distill alcohol and kick start the liquor and spirits industry.

Here's a link to a nice page on gasoline distillation, http://www.elmhurst.edu/~chm/vchembook/514gasoline.html

Since they are drinking whiskey, I am pretty sure they already have a distilling industry

AirTech wrote:
The Haber-Bosch process, as implemented currently, uses natural gas as a feed stock which is burnt/reacted at high pressure with compressed air and steam and an iron catalyst replacing the osmium used originally(but uranium works better). No electricity needed except generally the plants produce a significant level of excess power in operation so you need to soak this up. (The Compressor/Expanders usually have a motor-generator coupled for this reason - motor for start-up & shutdown purge, generator for operation).

Using natural gas as feedstock for hydrogen opens another can of worms. Steam reforming is restricted to light hydrocarbons ranging from natural gas (methane) to light naphtha. For higher hydrocarbons, such as fuel oil or vacuum residue this technology is not applicable on account of impurities as sulfur and heavy metals which would poison the sensitive nickel catalyst. In addition cracking reactions are more likely to occur on the catalyst, depositing carbon which might block the catalysts pores and also restrict the gas flow. As the nickel catalysts are highly sensitive to sulfur compounds, these catalysts poisons have to be removed prior to the reforming reaction. For this purpose any organic sulfur compounds contained in the hydrocarbon feedstock are first hydrogenated on a cobaltmolybdenum catalyst to hydrocarbon and hydrogen sulfide, which is then absorbed with zinc oxide to form zinc sulfide.

Keith_w wrote:Since they are drinking whiskey, I am pretty sure they already have a distilling industry

Bit of a difference in scale and rate of throughput, though.

How hard it would be to establish production of acids in big quantities?
From what I know about chemistry it isn't that hard, cus we have something like seven ways to get them.

Draken wrote:How hard it would be to establish production of acids in big quantities?
From what I know about chemistry it isn't that hard, cus we have something like seven ways to get them.

The problem with distillation without cracking is that you end up with a large amount of very heavy (long chain) gunk that used to be just burned. You don't want tot do that anymore, as that gunk now forms the basis for the entire petrochemical industry.
Gasoline is still measured in terms of octane - which is C8H18, a short chain hydrocarbon with 8 carbons and 18 hydrogen atoms. It was originally a contaminant in the production of kerosene, which was being used for heating and lighting before the invention of the light bulb. As a contaminant it was responsible for a number of fires caused by the gasoline in the kerosene flashing over and exploding. Standard Oil traded on the fact that they produced a "standard" of kerosene that didn't have the gasoline contaminant, and was therefore safe to use in the household for heating and lighting. This of course left Rockefeller with a large amount of gasoline that he was loath to just burn, so he pushed for the development of a small engine that might be able to use it, and promised to use such an engine in his refineries. At about this time, Edison started to work on the light bulb, and Rockefeller could see the handwriting on the wall for kerosene lighting. He wanted an alternative use for petroleum that he could supply, and the IC engine looked promising.