Black Powder and Rate of Fire

"shoot a BP weapon until you must clean it which is all to often...."
***
And a dirty PITA!!

Steve

USMA74 wrote:Some dated (1987) US Army logistical planning data:

...
Rifle 5.56 M16A1 Number: 13,160
...

...Extremely rough math shows an expenditure of between 120 and 70 rounds a day per rifle in the offense.

For your consideration and comment.

The M16A1 is an auto-loading design capable of semi, full, and in later models, burst automatic fire. That increases ammunition usage significantly because there is a tendency to "double tap" targets or to "spray and pray" on full automatic.

If you can find comparable figures for infantry units of WWII or, even better, WWI you'll have a closer match for the ICA.

Weird Harold wrote:If you can find comparable figures for infantry units of WWII or, even better, WWI you'll have a closer match for the ICA.

Generally speaking, the official basic load of ammunition is what an infanteer is expected to fire off in a battle. Or at least a phase of a battle before being resupplied.

What the infantry will try to carry in ammo tends to be two or three times because infantry is oddly not habitually trusting about resupply.

Graydon wrote:

Weird Harold wrote:If you can find comparable figures for infantry units of WWII or, even better, WWI you'll have a closer match for the ICA.

Generally speaking, the official basic load of ammunition is what an infanteer is expected to fire off in a battle. Or at least a phase of a battle before being resupplied.

What the infantry will try to carry in ammo tends to be two or three times because infantry is oddly not habitually trusting about resupply.

Having been left on the short end of the stick far too many times by the damn supply clerks.

Graydon wrote:

Weird Harold wrote:If you can find comparable figures for infantry units of WWII or, even better, WWI you'll have a closer match for the ICA.

Generally speaking, the official basic load of ammunition is what an infanteer is expected to fire off in a battle. Or at least a phase of a battle before being resupplied.

True, but you're ignoring the point that the "official basic load" was not the same for WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam, Gulf War I and the post gulf-war numbers given above; numbers for troops equipped with auto-loading rifles with the capability of firing off an 20 round magazine in about ten seconds (in spray-and-pray mode)

What I suggested was that USMA74 find some "official basic load" numbers for a force comparably equipped to the ICA w/M96 rifles.

Weird Harold wrote:What I suggested was that USMA74 find some "official basic load" numbers for a force comparably equipped to the ICA w/M96 rifles.

That moved around a lot, if we're talking bolt-action for "comparably". 19th century would be the traditional seventy rounds, by 1916 in the Great War depending on unit (lots of variation) basic ammo load's up to between 150 and 200 rounds. Plus Mills bombs, mortar ammo, sandbag bags, etc. By World War II basic rifle ammo for your own rifle was often down at 50 rounds, but you'd be carrying another hundred-odd in LMG magazines and probably SMG ammo, too. Crew served weapons start to dominate.

I'd expect that the ICA, given ten round magazines, will be issuing a basic load for the M96 of at least 110 rounds.

Graydon wrote:

Weird Harold wrote:What I suggested was that USMA74 find some "official basic load" numbers for a force comparably equipped to the ICA w/M96 rifles.

That moved around a lot, if we're talking bolt-action for "comparably". 19th century would be the traditional seventy rounds, by 1916 in the Great War depending on unit (lots of variation) basic ammo load's up to between 150 and 200 rounds. Plus Mills bombs, mortar ammo, sandbag bags, etc. By World War II basic rifle ammo for your own rifle was often down at 50 rounds, but you'd be carrying another hundred-odd in LMG magazines and probably SMG ammo, too. Crew served weapons start to dominate.

I'd expect that the ICA, given ten round magazines, will be issuing a basic load for the M96 of at least 110 rounds.

Yeah, I tried googling it and was able to come up with nothing consistent except everybody wanted all the ammo they could carry. I think your guess at 110 rounds is probably about right.

Don

SHV wrote:"shoot a BP weapon until you must clean it which is all to often...."
***
And a dirty PITA!!

Steve

Boiling water - or, in an emergency piss in it!

As requested.
Ammunition Basic Load for Infantry Division (from the 1959 edition of the U.S. Army FM 101-10, Staff Officer's Field Manual)
Figures reflect the U.S. Army's WWII and Korea experiences.

M1911A1 Pistol 31 rds (21 on Soldier, 7 on vehicle, 3 bulk load)
M-1 Rifle 200 rds (72 on Soldier, 96 on vehicle, 32 bulk load)
105mm Howitzer 200 rds (60 on vehicle, 140 bulk load)
155mm Howitzer 150 rds (24 on vehicle, 126 bulk load)

Estimated Ammunition Expenditures
Pistol, auto, cal .45 Defense (Day 1, 2 rds--then 1 rd/day) Attack (Day 1, 2 rds--then 1 rd/day)
Rifle, cal .30 Defense (Day 1, 25 rds--then 15 rds/day) Attack (Day 1, 20 rds--then 15 rds/day)
105mm Howitzer Defense (Day 1, 180 rds--Succeeding days, 110 rds) Attack (Permanent Fortifications) (Day 1, 150 rds--Succeeding days, 90 rds)
155mm Howitzer Defense (Day 1, 140 rds--Succeeding days, 85 rds) Attack (Permanent Fortifications) (Day 1, 120 rds--Succeeding days, 70 rds)

These expenditure rates reflect an average across the entire force to include echelon headquarters and sustainment units. Obviously the useage in front line infantry companies would be far higher.

Hope this is useful.

USMA74 wrote:As requested.
Ammunition Basic Load for Infantry Division (from the 1959 edition of the U.S. Army FM 101-10, Staff Officer's Field Manual)
Figures reflect the U.S. Army's WWII and Korea experiences.

M1911A1 Pistol 31 rds (21 on Soldier, 7 on vehicle, 3 bulk load)
M-1 Rifle 200 rds (72 on Soldier, 96 on vehicle, 32 bulk load)
105mm Howitzer 200 rds (60 on vehicle, 140 bulk load)
155mm Howitzer 150 rds (24 on vehicle, 126 bulk load)

Estimated Ammunition Expenditures
Pistol, auto, cal .45 Defense (Day 1, 2 rds--then 1 rd/day) Attack (Day 1, 2 rds--then 1 rd/day)
Rifle, cal .30 Defense (Day 1, 25 rds--then 15 rds/day) Attack (Day 1, 20 rds--then 15 rds/day)
105mm Howitzer Defense (Day 1, 180 rds--Succeeding days, 110 rds) Attack (Permanent Fortifications) (Day 1, 150 rds--Succeeding days, 90 rds)
155mm Howitzer Defense (Day 1, 140 rds--Succeeding days, 85 rds) Attack (Permanent Fortifications) (Day 1, 120 rds--Succeeding days, 70 rds)

These expenditure rates reflect an average across the entire force to include echelon headquarters and sustainment units. Obviously the useage in front line infantry companies would be far higher.

Hope this is useful.

Magnificent