Of Mike and Mesa

SharkHunter wrote:Thoughts on the number of ships vs the MSN.

Keep in mind that the MSN is used to taking orders from .... somebody. And those somebodies have cut and run, leaving a defense force that already knows they can't stand up to a single SD(p), let alone whatever parts of 10th Fleet Admirals Henke, etc. brought with her to Meyers and thence to Mesa.

But in Cauldron of Ghosts and at the end of aRT, for the sake of responsibility. Henke IS 10th Fleet.

She's not going to leave Meyers bare, and there's more Madras sector wiping up to do. In the unlikely event she were killed in that battle, control of 10th fleet doesn't just go downhill forever to her highest ranking squadron admiral. "Mesa area 10th fleet" would, but only until communication were established with Manticore. Whatever she's left behind her is temporarily Khumalo's until she gets back.

So twelve capital ships are apparently what "10th Fleet" took with her. More than enough to make the abandoned Mesan command structure to consider the high likelihood of being shot or hung in the next few hours or days if they didn't roll over and play humble puppy PDQ.

As SWM said, the MSN takes orders from the Mesan Government, not the now-vanished MAlign. The Mesan government, on the other hand, is busy looking for fresh underwear the last we saw of them in CoG.

The MAN doesn't think very much of the MSN. That opinion might even be justified, considering what happened at Torch:

Crown of Slaves, Chapter 46 wrote:"And speakin' purely as a backward and benighted neobarb," Oversteegen observed with deadly affability, "I really suspect, Commodore, that your government would be most unhappy with the officer who managed, in one afternoon, t' get them into a shootin' war with both the Solarian League and the Star Kingdom of Manticore."
Navarre deflated visibly. It was rather like watching the air flow out of a punctured balloon, Oversteegen thought. The commodore was clearly picturing what a squadron or two of modern Matacoran ships-of-the-wall could do to the entire Mesan navy. Especially if the Solarian League wasn't simply giving them free passage to reach Mesa but actually acting as a co-belligerent.

As far as actual hulls are concerned, in CoS Commodore Navarre has a battlecruiser, two heavy cruisers, three light cruisers and fourteen destroyers. That's unlikely to be the entire MSN, but we don't know how much more there is.

JohnRoth wrote:

SharkHunter wrote:Thoughts on the number of ships vs the MSN.

Keep in mind that the MSN is used to taking orders from .... somebody. And those somebodies have cut and run, leaving a defense force that already knows they can't stand up to a single SD(p), let alone whatever parts of 10th Fleet Admirals Henke, etc. brought with her to Meyers and thence to Mesa.

But in Cauldron of Ghosts and at the end of aRT, for the sake of responsibility. Henke IS 10th Fleet.

She's not going to leave Meyers bare, and there's more Madras sector wiping up to do. In the unlikely event she were killed in that battle, control of 10th fleet doesn't just go downhill forever to her highest ranking squadron admiral. "Mesa area 10th fleet" would, but only until communication were established with Manticore. Whatever she's left behind her is temporarily Khumalo's until she gets back.

So twelve capital ships are apparently what "10th Fleet" took with her. More than enough to make the abandoned Mesan command structure to consider the high likelihood of being shot or hung in the next few hours or days if they didn't roll over and play humble puppy PDQ.

As SWM said, the MSN takes orders from the Mesan Government, not the now-vanished MAlign. The Mesan government, on the other hand, is busy looking for fresh underwear the last we saw of them in CoG.

The MAN doesn't think very much of the MSN. That opinion might even be justified, considering what happened at Torch:

Crown of Slaves, Chapter 46 wrote:"And speakin' purely as a backward and benighted neobarb," Oversteegen observed with deadly affability, "I really suspect, Commodore, that your government would be most unhappy with the officer who managed, in one afternoon, t' get them into a shootin' war with both the Solarian League and the Star Kingdom of Manticore."
Navarre deflated visibly. It was rather like watching the air flow out of a punctured balloon, Oversteegen thought. The commodore was clearly picturing what a squadron or two of modern Matacoran ships-of-the-wall could do to the entire Mesan navy. Especially if the Solarian League wasn't simply giving them free passage to reach Mesa but actually acting as a co-belligerent.

As far as actual hulls are concerned, in CoS Commodore Navarre has a battlecruiser, two heavy cruisers, three light cruisers and fourteen destroyers. That's unlikely to be the entire MSN, but we don't know how much more there is.

Also discussed in:

Crown of Slaves, Chapter 44 wrote:But while Mesa maintained a navy, it was nowhere near so grand as the SLN. Indeed, it was on the small side even by the standards of single-system star nations, although its individual units had excellent hardware. Despite its nationhood Mesa was, after all, essentially a conglomerate of business interests, and navies, by their nature, are expensive propositions which do not normally show a positive cash flow.
That was why some Mesa-based corporations, like Manpower, maintained private fleets. And another reason for Manpower, in particular, to do so was that the council which governed Mesa was hesitant to use military power too openly in Manpower's special interests. There was no point actively courting negative news coverage, after all.

Boldface and underlined text is my emphasis.

Based on the above quotes, plus what David has said about the size of the average star system defense forces in the Honorverse, I don't think the Mesa System Navy has any units larger than a battlecruiser. Numbers of BCs and smaller classes would probably be not too high.

The Mesan Navy will die if it engages that part of the 10th Fleet that arrives in the Mesan System.
The Mesan Government not only has its hands full with revolts in various stages of development or outright fighting on the planet's surface, it is using kinetic weapons strikes at least in on targets in Mendel. The supposes that the weapons are comming from a MSN ship or ships pulled in close to the planet as a spaceborn weapons platform.

Where the rest of the MSN is at the moment is unknown. You can presume it is in some defensive posture relative to the planet and possibly has parts of it posted against the chance that someone is in active connection with the people fighting against governmental forces on the ground and may show up in a ship or be descovered on a ship already in system to further destabelize the situation. That they are thinking that SEM is going to send several SDs to take over the system is not really high on the like of Things-that-could-happen.

If a smallish SDF has 10 of what appear to be SDs drop into the system with probably hostile intent ( WHERE IN HELL DID THEY JUST COME FROM?????) they are faces with some difficult choices. One is to try to keep the incomming force from taking the orbital positions on the planet and forcing surrender. Another is to 1st ask who they are, what are they doing here and try to get them to leave or at least buy time for the government to try something.

The MSN might actually have fairly good information about the Battle (or Ignominous Defeat of the SLN) at Spindle and be somewhat subdued if Mike opens communications with :
This is Admiral Gold Peak of the Royal Manticorian Navy. I am here, amoung other reasons, to put an end to genetic slavery at its most flagrent source in the known Galaxey. Stand down your warships and withdraw to coordinates to follow and surrendering your ships pending the resolution of discussions with the Government of Mesa.
As you may be aware, part of my fleet, consisting primarily of BCs destroyed or captured several hundred SLN warships under Admiral Crandall at Spindle earlier this year. I would suggest that attempting to engage my SDs with your System Defence Force would essentialy be suicide on your part. Either way, I will have the conversations nessisary with the Government of Mesa, the only question is if you will be dead when that happens. Your choice.
Coordinates to follow.

Gold Peak out.

[quote="Brigade XO"]The Mesan Navy will die if it engages that part of the 10th Fleet that arrives in the Mesan System.
The Mesan Government not only has its hands full with revolts in various stages of development or outright fighting on the planet's surface, it is using kinetic weapons strikes at least in on targets in Mendel. The supposes that the weapons are comming from a MSN ship or ships pulled in close to the planet as a spaceborn weapons platform.

Where the rest of the MSN is at the moment is unknown. You can presume it is in some defensive posture relative to the planet and possibly has parts of it posted against the chance that someone is in active connection with the people fighting against governmental forces on the ground and may show up in a ship or be descovered on a ship already in system to further destabelize the situation. That they are thinking that SEM is going to send several SDs to take over the system is not really high on the like of Things-that-could-happen.

If a smallish SDF has 10 of what appear to be SDs drop into the system with probably hostile intent ( WHERE IN HELL DID THEY JUST COME FROM?????) they are faces with some difficult choices. One is to try to keep the incomming force from taking the orbital positions on the planet and forcing surrender. Another is to 1st ask who they are, what are they doing here and try to get them to leave or at least buy time for the government to try something.

-----------------

As noted elsewhere, the timing indicates it might be 10th Fleet with some in hyper for intercept duty; other option is Gustav Andermann and an IAN fleet. In either case, little good news for Mesa, no matter who is ordering the Mesa System Navy.
Any MSN ships on station at the wormhole junction will likely get away, otherwise they will be rundown or intercepted by Oversteegan and Company.
Most of 10th Flt's CA's and DD's are still at Montana or are off intercepting SLN FF forces opposing resistance movements (there were at least 3-4 unaddressed).
There's more shipping (more "product") in Mesa than Myers so any Merchies near the wormhole are gone unless 3 or 4 BC translate nearby and do an "all ships" to stand down.

Does Eridani apply when a navy is striking its own homeworld ?

Taking Mesa is where a few medical support or hospital ships could prove useful.

-- Stewart

stewart wrote:
Does Eridani apply when a navy is striking its own homeworld ?

-- Stewart

No, it doesn't. That presumes that the Navy is acting under the orders of the Home Government or is othewise engaged in defending the homeworld. At this point, the MSN ships acting under government orders are still obeying lawfull orders of the legaly empowered government of the planet and system.

In the case of Mesa, whatever ships were in close orbit of the planet as fire support and tactical overwatch of the situation on the ground are likely to be pinned either between the incomming starships and the planet or are going to be mostly unable to get to their nominal system defence positions. Even if they abandon the fire support mission they are at a vast disadvantage vs the incomming (presumed attacking) force.

stewart wrote:

Brigade XO wrote:The Mesan Navy will die if it engages that part of the 10th Fleet that arrives in the Mesan System.
The Mesan Government not only has its hands full with revolts in various stages of development or outright fighting on the planet's surface, it is using kinetic weapons strikes at least in on targets in Mendel. The supposes that the weapons are comming from a MSN ship or ships pulled in close to the planet as a spaceborn weapons platform.

Where the rest of the MSN is at the moment is unknown. You can presume it is in some defensive posture relative to the planet and possibly has parts of it posted against the chance that someone is in active connection with the people fighting against governmental forces on the ground and may show up in a ship or be descovered on a ship already in system to further destabelize the situation. That they are thinking that SEM is going to send several SDs to take over the system is not really high on the like of Things-that-could-happen.

If a smallish SDF has 10 of what appear to be SDs drop into the system with probably hostile intent ( WHERE IN HELL DID THEY JUST COME FROM?????) they are faces with some difficult choices. One is to try to keep the incomming force from taking the orbital positions on the planet and forcing surrender. Another is to 1st ask who they are, what are they doing here and try to get them to leave or at least buy time for the government to try something.

As noted elsewhere, the timing indicates it might be 10th Fleet with some in hyper for intercept duty; other option is Gustav Andermann and an IAN fleet. In either case, little good news for Mesa, no matter who is ordering the Mesa System Navy.
Any MSN ships on station at the wormhole junction will likely get away, otherwise they will be rundown or intercepted by Oversteegan and Company.
Most of 10th Flt's CA's and DD's are still at Montana or are off intercepting SLN FF forces opposing resistance movements (there were at least 3-4 unaddressed).
There's more shipping (more "product") in Mesa than Myers so any Merchies near the wormhole are gone unless 3 or 4 BC translate nearby and do an "all ships" to stand down.

Does Eridani apply when a navy is striking its own homeworld ?

Taking Mesa is where a few medical support or hospital ships could prove useful.

-- Stewart

Consider the end of chapter 66 of CoG:

Cauldron of Ghosts, chapter 66 wrote:"Well, General Palane, it seems something new has been added to the balance of forces here in the Mesa System. Thirty-five minutes ago---"

That's awfully fast for orders to come down, so I suspect General Drescher is acting on her own, and the time delay is so a tech can patch into the tower's com system. It's way too fast for any communication with an IAN task force, and marginal for Tenth Fleet to get a Hermes Buoy in place.

Of course, RFC is playing a bit cagey here, because we don't absolutely know what happened 35 minutes ago, although the phrasing rather strongly supports that's when the hyper footprints occurred. Which means General Drescher pretty much assumes the MSN is toast, and the only question is whether it lands butter side up or not.

JohnRoth wrote:Consider the end of chapter 66 of CoG:

Cauldron of Ghosts, chapter 66 wrote:"Well, General Palane, it seems something new has been added to the balance of forces here in the Mesa System. Thirty-five minutes ago---"

That's awfully fast for orders to come down, so I suspect General Drescher is acting on her own, and the time delay is so a tech can patch into the tower's com system. It's way too fast for any communication with an IAN task force, and marginal for Tenth Fleet to get a Hermes Buoy in place.

Of course, RFC is playing a bit cagey here, because we don't absolutely know what happened 35 minutes ago, although the phrasing rather strongly supports that's when the hyper footprints occurred. Which means General Drescher pretty much assumes the MSN is toast, and the only question is whether it lands butter side up or not.

Your assumption is too big. We don't know how much time has passed between the arrival of the hyper footprint and Drescher's communication with Cachat. It could be "Thirty-five minutes ago, a Manticoran task force entered Mesan orbit."

SWM wrote:

JohnRoth wrote:Consider the end of chapter 66 of CoG:


That's awfully fast for orders to come down, so I suspect General Drescher is acting on her own, and the time delay is so a tech can patch into the tower's com system. It's way too fast for any communication with an IAN task force, and marginal for Tenth Fleet to get a Hermes Buoy in place.

Of course, RFC is playing a bit cagey here, because we don't absolutely know what happened 35 minutes ago, although the phrasing rather strongly supports that's when the hyper footprints occurred. Which means General Drescher pretty much assumes the MSN is toast, and the only question is whether it lands butter side up or not.

Your assumption is too big. We don't know how much time has passed between the arrival of the hyper footprint and Drescher's communication with Cachat. It could be "Thirty-five minutes ago, a Manticoran task force entered Mesan orbit."

Or something between those two extremes - "35 minutes ago we received a surrender demand from the <RMN|IAN|invaders from the Andromeda galaxy> who dropped out of hyper just over an hour ago."

I suspect that General Drescher got an update on that massive hyper footprint, probably some conversation about probably needing the Peaceforce in a new mission and is now trying to get her troops disengaged from the tower with no more losses.

One rebel city town- in very bad condition- is no longer a primarly concern. Preserving her troops is. Of the possibilities for that hyper footprint, the best guess is 1) someone has shown up with a massive force and is going to change the government of Mesa. The rebels are not really a concern any more. 2) someone has shonwn up with a massive force to help the Mesa government and the general is perfectly willing to let someone else bleed for that dam tower.

Number 2 is highly unlikely

...Which means General Drescher pretty much assumes the MSN is toast, and the only question is whether it lands butter side up or not.

I cry foul. Here I am innocently sipping my Honor Harrington approved cocoa (with yummy creams) while reading forum posts, and you pop that one on me. I spluttered so bad, I nearly burned meeself.

Anyway, I think the poor general, fighting the uppity secces to bitter frustration forgot to pass on the text message from those big ole ships in the hyper footprint....

Surrender or die. Butter side down.