Why no Crusher the first time?

It may well be that in Kaplan's case her tactical ability, her knowledge of the Talbott Quadrant and her familiarity with the Mk 16 in use trumped a strict requirement that she complete the ATC before taking command of Tristram. The phrase 'the exigencies of the Service' can get you a long way, especially if you happen to be a Space Lord as well.

While someone who is going to not command a warship but work on the Fleet Train or Auxilluaries may not need the Crusher, they are going to need to learn and understand working with the warships and a certain amount of ship handling to keep themselves alive and get the hell out of Dodge if something goes wrong.

A good merchant captain should have some of that same skill set and would at least understand military discipline if not have always practiced it on a civilian ship. There are still rules and regulations plus a basic level of competence in maintaining command and running said ship.

The ships in the logistics side of the fleet probably have some defensive weaponry and both the crew and commander has to know and train in how to use that. They would not be encouraged to go looking for trouble but they should know what the capabilites of their own ship are and tactics for at least attempting to stay alive and get out of harms way if at all possible.

Brigade XO wrote:While someone who is going to not command a warship but work on the Fleet Train or Auxilluaries may not need the Crusher, they are going to need to learn and understand working with the warships and a certain amount of ship handling to keep themselves alive and get the hell out of Dodge if something goes wrong.

A good merchant captain should have some of that same skill set and would at least understand military discipline if not have always practiced it on a civilian ship. There are still rules and regulations plus a basic level of competence in maintaining command and running said ship.

The ships in the logistics side of the fleet probably have some defensive weaponry and both the crew and commander has to know and train in how to use that. They would not be encouraged to go looking for trouble but they should know what the capabilites of their own ship are and tactics for at least attempting to stay alive and get out of harms way if at all possible.

I would expect that to be part of the tactical curriculum of basic training. The stuff that Honor was teaching while she was at Saganami.

Weird Harold wrote:

SWM wrote:I don't think you can get recommended for ATC until you are under consideration for command. In other words, you generally go straight from ATC to your new command.

I doubt that every ATC student has a specific command waiting their completion of the course. More likely, the majority of ATC students go on a list of "available for command appropriate to rank." Only exceptional officers, like Honor, get a command directly out of ATC; perhaps the top ten percent or so of each class in peacetime.

I tend to agree.
For that matter it doesn't really make sense to restrict advanced tactical training to only ship captains. The XO at least and probably some of the senior tactical department people could all benefit from having received that training.

First, some of them are on the list that assumes control of the bridge when the captain is off watch (or if he's injured or killed) - so they might be the ones in command if the ship gets ambushed (or assume command from aux-con if the bridge gets wiped out). And second they're responsible for making and running training sims for junior officers, and having a bit of ATC polish would help them do the best job of providing that deployed training.


Now I can certainly believe that there were plenty of times when they couldn't be freed to attend ATC until it became the final qualification to pass before receiving a cruiser command - but that shouldn't always be the case. When practical I think it makes sense to send seasoned officers through the course at least a few assignments before they're considered for command.

Brigade XO wrote:While someone who is going to not command a warship but work on the Fleet Train or Auxilluaries may not need the Crusher, they are going to need to learn and understand working with the warships and a certain amount of ship handling to keep themselves alive and get the hell out of Dodge if something goes wrong.

A good merchant captain should have some of that same skill set and would at least understand military discipline if not have always practiced it on a civilian ship. There are still rules and regulations plus a basic level of competence in maintaining command and running said ship.

The ships in the logistics side of the fleet probably have some defensive weaponry and both the crew and commander has to know and train in how to use that. They would not be encouraged to go looking for trouble but they should know what the capabilites of their own ship are and tactics for at least attempting to stay alive and get out of harms way if at all possible.

yes.

Dealing with warships has to be part of the Merchant officers course for everyone. Whether it's a regular naval vessel or a pirate, merchants don't fight armed ships much (Bachfish's vessel isn't typical). Remember Bonadventure.

Somewhere in the text it says you can have ship command, but not command of a warship heavier than a DD, without ATC. It occurs to me that destroyers weren't the typical slot for a warship command without ATC in the pre-war RMN.

From the early 1800's until the 1870's era of the naval expansion, I think one of the BuNiners posted somewhere that there were over a thousand frigates. Lyonheart thinks OB issues a lot and would probably remember the post, or Duckk might say. (I don't recommend searching with "frigate"!! ) Honor's DD command just came after the phase-out of the frigates, as DD assumed their escort role.

How that(command w/o ATC) plays out in the wartime RMN isn't in the text.

Worth remembering also that Honor's graduating class was given somewhere as 241 graduates. So, a lot fewer people to choose from.

Another minor point too, if there are any actual military escorts, the escort commander will be in tactical command, not someone in a service/supply vessel who might be senior. A DD or CL skipper is not only armed, but more accustomed to dealing with threats, and most of them will have already done ATC.

Regards,

Rob

Jonathan_S wrote:I tend to agree.
For that matter it doesn't really make sense to restrict advanced tactical training to only ship captains. The XO at least and probably some of the senior tactical department people could all benefit from having received that training.

First, some of them are on the list that assumes control of the bridge when the captain is off watch (or if he's injured or killed) - so they might be the ones in command if the ship gets ambushed (or assume command from aux-con if the bridge gets wiped out). And second they're responsible for making and running training sims for junior officers, and having a bit of ATC polish would help them do the best job of providing that deployed training.


Now I can certainly believe that there were plenty of times when they couldn't be freed to attend ATC until it became the final qualification to pass before receiving a cruiser command - but that shouldn't always be the case. When practical I think it makes sense to send seasoned officers through the course at least a few assignments before they're considered for command.

I disagree. The XO and tactical officers do not need ATC. They already get the tactical curriculum in basic training. Not everyone in basic takes the tactical curriculum, just the ones thinking of going down the tactical career line. Then during their middie cruises, they get hands-on training at tactical. They also get practice taking turns sitting watch in the command chair. And they continue learning as their career unfolds.

ATC is for after you have had all that training, and you are ready to take on the challenge of formal command of a major warship. The regular tactical training that an XO or tactical officer gets is quite sufficient for them to command in an emergency situation--that's one of the reasons they get practice sitting watch on the bridge.

Re: Naomi and the ATC...

Two thoughts, will try to be brief. First, keep in mind that RFC is an avid military history buff, and in the HonorVerse, the whole point of Saganami Island is to train good officers. I think of the ATC as a similar to the US's post- West Point. etc. command colleges that are used nowadays vs. back in the day when West Point or Annapolis plus connections = high officer rank. Yet in the USA's Civil War, Lincoln had trouble finding generals -- in spit of West Point -- that could manage a battlefield well enough to qualify as "able to poop without hitting their own boots". Compare that to two colonels at Gettysburg who obviously COULD, first Buford's defense in depth and then Chamberlain's defense at Little Round Top. Gettysburg and after pretty much proved many of the Confederate General Longstreet's war theories, but fifty plus years later armies were still lining up and marching into battle against entrenched positions with similar results as Pickett's Charge.

Back to Naomi. She could have done ATC before being assigned as Terekhov's highest ranking Tactical Officer, but gone with to make sure he had a 'state of the art trained shooter' -- the way I read it, the TO is generally the #3 ranking officer on a warship(?). That would make sense for Rafe Cardones, Scotty Tremaine, Sam Webster, and eventually Abigail Hearns as well.

I'm also thinking as others have surmised that the 'peacetime Crusher' was designed-to but not real successful in stopping cronyism (Elvis Santino somehow not only got in Honor marvels that he somehow scraped by), where a wartime "Crusher" would be perhaps shortened and be a polisher reserved for JTOs and TOs and others who've already been proven in the fires of battle, and not need the washout aspect of the ATC but only the 'advanced tactical" parts.

Final bit. When they are headed into New Tuscany, Commodore Chattarjee (hope I spelled that right) has HMS Tristam "take the back door", and apologizes because he knows she's a good shooter. They joke about how he chose who got to mind the store and "she got the short straw", but she's also likely the junior ranking DD command officer, and he's not expecting to need a shooter. What the good Commodore likely DID want was a good "tac wizard" out system making sure nobody tries a pull fast one. Being a smart flag officer he chooses each ship for the roles he needs, not expecting Byng to be an idiot and ambush his three DD's with all of the SLN battle cruisers.

Thoughts?

[quote="SharkHunter"]Re: Naomi and the ATC...

Snipped

Final bit. When they are headed into New Tuscany, Commodore Chattarjee (hope I spelled that right) has HMS Tristam "take the back door", and apologizes because he knows she's a good shooter. They joke about how he chose who got to mind the store and "she got the short straw", but she's also likely the junior ranking DD command officer, and he's not expecting to need a shooter. What the good Commodore likely DID want was a good "tac wizard" out system making sure nobody tries a pull fast one. Being a smart flag officer he chooses each ship for the roles he needs, not expecting Byng to be an idiot and ambush his three DD's with all of the SLN battle cruisers.

Both CPT Morgan and CPT Zavala outrank Naomi Kaplan. But neither of them were there; I expect she drew the short straw because her ship was number two in the squadron competition--he had reason to trust her abilities.

Rob

I tend to think the crusher is given to any officer on track to be given command to anything larger than a DD, usually earlier than when they are given their command. Case in point, Michelle Henke was Honor's XO in SVW and the begining of FoD. She was promoted to Cpt JG for her performance under Honor, and given command of the Light Cruiser Agni. She left the Nike, wearing her new ship's insignia and a white Beret. This implies she already took the crusher, prior to her posting as XO of Nike, as she wouldn't be posted a ship prior to completion.

Granted, we don't know a lot of her past, and perhaps she had taken the crusher and commanded a DD, prior to her posting with Honor, but I tend to doubt the RMN would take someone from a command position (not including a LAC) and then make them someone else's XO. I would think with her service record, it would be more likely she would have gone from commanding a DD to commanding her own CL, without an intermediary step of serving as XO.

Laz48 wrote:I tend to think the crusher is given to any officer on track to be given command to anything larger than a DD, usually earlier than when they are given their command. Case in point, Michelle Henke was Honor's XO in SVW and the begining of FoD. She was promoted to Cpt JG for her performance under Honor, and given command of the Light Cruiser Agni. She left the Nike, wearing her new ship's insignia and a white Beret. This implies she already took the crusher, prior to her posting as XO of Nike, as she wouldn't be posted a ship prior to completion.

Granted, we don't know a lot of her past, and perhaps she had taken the crusher and commanded a DD, prior to her posting with Honor, but I tend to doubt the RMN would take someone from a command position (not including a LAC) and then make them someone else's XO. I would think with her service record, it would be more likely she would have gone from commanding a DD to commanding her own CL, without an intermediary step of serving as XO.

Maybe she was given an XO's slot once out of the Crusher instead of a command for political reasons, to make it clear that favoritism wasn't being shown because of who her relatives were.