Advanced tech without electricity/internal combustion?

I was considering how Safehold could develop the following technologies without use of the two crucial techs of the 20th century;

1) Automobiles, and by extension armored vehicles.
2) Submarines.
3) Domestic appliances.
4) Airplanes.


Beyond the political/theological issues, Safehold tech base would need to mature a lot more before internal combustion was introduced. However, it doesn't need to - becauce Charis' steelworks are already producing high quality steel and Charis has experience with renewable energy sources and steam engines.

I believe the answer to be compressed air energy storage;


a) Compressed air energy storage compares favorably to metal-acid batteries to energy density, ease of manufacture, recycleability and base materials. It basically needs quality steel to be made into high-pressure containers, something Charis is essentially already going for with its artillery manufacture.

b) Charis already knows how to make compressed-air engines since they are basically steam engines without combustion chambers.

c) Once compressed air is available, liquid oxygen for use in submarines is easy to make. This would allow burning of fuel in a sub while submerged.

d) For airplanes, liquid oxygen and hydrogen is usable both in conventional engines and as rocket fuel. Steel tanks of compressed air would be too heavy for airplane use except in quite brief flights, however Safehold has steel thistle silk, which is comparable to artificial fibers in strength. Containers of what is essentially a Kevlar analog would be light enough to power even an air-turbine aircraft.

Hi Belial666,

Compressed air is interesting but it has its limits so Howsmyn won't be shutting down his coal furnaces to replace them with compressed air from his hydro accumulators anytime soon.

I suspect oil and natural gas are also going to considerably increase in use besides great increases in coal production, so power production can be adapted as local sources permit.

Various threads have dealt with steam vehicles, and submarines which the ICN certainly won't be needing for quite some time, compressed air could be a marketable household power source but aircraft seem verboten for the present time, and diesel seems far more practical when it isn't.

L

Belial666 wrote:I was considering how Safehold could develop the following technologies without use of the two crucial techs of the 20th century;

1) Automobiles, and by extension armored vehicles.
2) Submarines.
3) Domestic appliances.
4) Airplanes.


Beyond the political/theological issues, Safehold tech base would need to mature a lot more before internal combustion was introduced. However, it doesn't need to - becauce Charis' steelworks are already producing high quality steel and Charis has experience with renewable energy sources and steam engines.

I believe the answer to be compressed air energy storage;


a) Compressed air energy storage compares favorably to metal-acid batteries to energy density, ease of manufacture, recycleability and base materials. It basically needs quality steel to be made into high-pressure containers, something Charis is essentially already going for with its artillery manufacture.

b) Charis already knows how to make compressed-air engines since they are basically steam engines without combustion chambers.

c) Once compressed air is available, liquid oxygen for use in submarines is easy to make. This would allow burning of fuel in a sub while submerged.

d) For airplanes, liquid oxygen and hydrogen is usable both in conventional engines and as rocket fuel. Steel tanks of compressed air would be too heavy for airplane use except in quite brief flights, however Safehold has steel thistle silk, which is comparable to artificial fibers in strength. Containers of what is essentially a Kevlar analog would be light enough to power even an air-turbine aircraft.

Diesel engines do not require the use of electricity. Furthermore fuel for a Diesel engine is the easiest to crack off of crude oil (Many Diesel engines run with bunker fuel which just needs to be warmed up to use)

bigrunt wrote:Diesel engines do not require the use of electricity. Furthermore fuel for a Diesel engine is the easiest to crack off of crude oil (Many Diesel engines run with bunker fuel which just needs to be warmed up to use)

Gas turbines don't either, although really good alloys or ceramics are needed, due to the centrifugal forces on the blades. Either that or slower speeds, which means lower capacities or larger sizes. These are mostly used for stationary purposes.

With compressed air, the major losses come from heat losses, as the air is compressed it heats up, as it expands, it cools down. These can be reduced by reducing the temperature change. Isothermal would be best but can only be approximated. One common technique is compressing / expanding in stages with intercoolers. A spray of very fine water with the air helps also, the water is denser, so absorbs most of the heat for a lower temperature change.

Here is a thought. With underground air storage, have the downdraft pipe with a heavy water spray to both reduce temperature change, and produce gravity induced further compression. The updraft would be pure air, and the water could be returned in another pipe. Done right, only a low pressure would be needed at the top (although high volume) but the return pressure would be high, with a lower volume.

bigrunt wrote:Diesel engines do not require the use of electricity. Furthermore fuel for a Diesel engine is the easiest to crack off of crude oil (Many Diesel engines run with bunker fuel which just needs to be warmed up to use)

You can power a diesel engine with vegetable oil too, and rendered animal fat if I remember right. When doing a cold start, Preheating it might be a pain, and getting it up to pressure might be similarly annoying...

BUT

I can imagine a coal-powered steam engine that would perform the twofold function of running a fuel pressurizing turbine and a coal-fired preheating assembly. A single charge of coal would burn in the hotbox at the front of the engine. By the time the single charge of coal is gone, the diesel engine should be up and running, heating it's own oil and powering it's own fuel compression. The hotbox could, of course, use other flammables, but coal would be pretty darn easy to deal with.

Cheopis wrote:

bigrunt wrote:Diesel engines do not require the use of electricity. Furthermore fuel for a Diesel engine is the easiest to crack off of crude oil (Many Diesel engines run with bunker fuel which just needs to be warmed up to use)

You can power a diesel engine with vegetable oil too, and rendered animal fat if I remember right. When doing a cold start, Preheating it might be a pain, and getting it up to pressure might be similarly annoying...

BUT

I can imagine a coal-powered steam engine that would perform the twofold function of running a fuel pressurizing turbine and a coal-fired preheating assembly. A single charge of coal would burn in the hotbox at the front of the engine. By the time the single charge of coal is gone, the diesel engine should be up and running, heating it's own oil and powering it's own fuel compression. The hotbox could, of course, use other flammables, but coal would be pretty darn easy to deal with.

The backup diesels on US nuke subs are designed to be started when everything else has gone in the crapper - they have pressurized air tanks on top of them to "run' the starter motors.

Ideally, any Safehold diesel will have an air compressor and starter tank attached.

Theemile wrote:The backup diesels on US nuke subs are designed to be started when everything else has gone in the crapper - they have pressurized air tanks on top of them to "run' the starter motors.

Ideally, any Safehold diesel will have an air compressor and starter tank attached.

Keep in mind you can do external combustion in other ways than steam; Stirling engines were considered too heavy for their power output in the 19th century, but given the current grade of alloy steels being produced, that wouldn't be a problem for Charis. And you get liquid nitrogen temperatures if you run them the other way around as refrigerators (which is what Stirling engines are mostly used for modernly, leaving aside some air-independent subs), which has to be interesting to the nascent chemical industry. So many experiments you're really rather do cold. (There's less boom when it's cold.)

So I can see Stirling engines in stationary and propulsive roles; no raising steam problems, no boiler-goes-boom issues, no problems with water quality. Just the sort of thing you're rather be selling to merchant skippers and manufactory owners.

Graydon wrote:

Theemile wrote:The backup diesels on US nuke subs are designed to be started when everything else has gone in the crapper - they have pressurized air tanks on top of them to "run' the starter motors.

Ideally, any Safehold diesel will have an air compressor and starter tank attached.

Keep in mind you can do external combustion in other ways than steam; Stirling engines were considered too heavy for their power output in the 19th century, but given the current grade of alloy steels being produced, that wouldn't be a problem for Charis. And you get liquid nitrogen temperatures if you run them the other way around as refrigerators (which is what Stirling engines are mostly used for modernly, leaving aside some air-independent subs), which has to be interesting to the nascent chemical industry. So many experiments you're really rather do cold. (There's less boom when it's cold.)

So I can see Stirling engines in stationary and propulsive roles; no raising steam problems, no boiler-goes-boom issues, no problems with water quality. Just the sort of thing you're rather be selling to merchant skippers and manufactory owners.

The Stirling engine!!!
Why do we develop one technology over another.
Cost, and ease of manufacture and maintenance are a few of the reasons.
Another is generating interest in one over the other.
Safehold has the Prohibitions interfering with technological development as well.
I wonder if we could sneak a hand-crank flashlight (torch) past an inquisitor (for a price).

TN4994 wrote:
The Stirling engine!!!
Why do we develop one technology over another.
Cost, and ease of manufacture and maintenance are a few of the reasons.
Another is generating interest in one over the other.
Safehold has the Prohibitions interfering with technological development as well.
I wonder if we could sneak a hand-crank flashlight (torch) past an inquisitor (for a price).

Regarding the hand-crank flashlight idea, you COULD make the argument that it is muscle powered. Which is allowable. I realize that this is a bit of a stretch in the interpretation. But is it really more of a stretch than the argument Paityr Wylsynn put forth when he ruled that steam was permissible under the proscriptions?

Henry Brown wrote:

TN4994 wrote:
The Stirling engine!!!
Why do we develop one technology over another.
Cost, and ease of manufacture and maintenance are a few of the reasons.
Another is generating interest in one over the other.
Safehold has the Prohibitions interfering with technological development as well.
I wonder if we could sneak a hand-crank flashlight (torch) past an inquisitor (for a price).

Regarding the hand-crank flashlight idea, you COULD make the argument that it is muscle powered. Which is allowable. I realize that this is a bit of a stretch in the interpretation. But is it really more of a stretch than the argument Paityr Wylsynn put forth when he ruled that steam was permissible under the proscriptions?

Yes! And they won't be producing tungsten filament bulbs any time soon either.