Dimitri and Honor's career

Captain Thomas Bachfisch strongly suspected that Dimitri Young used his position on the Naval Affairs Committee to hamper Honor Harrington's naval career after what she had done to his son Pavel.

Was Dimitri successful in hampering her career? Sure, he supported his son in his efforts to cause her severe emotional pain in her personal life, but was he successful in hampering her career or ultimately sparking it? Being shipped off to Basilisk Station proved to be the best thing for Honor's career.

Had she made rank faster, she may not have been in position to accomplish all that she did, or forge the relationships that were.

Would Honor have even become the Salamander? And where would poor Grayson be? And ... what alliance?!

cthia wrote:

Captain Thomas Bachfisch strongly suspected that Dimitri Young used his position on the Naval Affairs Committee to hamper Honor Harrington's naval career after what she had done to his son Pavel.

Was Dimitri successful in hampering her career? Sure, he supported his son in his efforts to cause her severe emotional pain in her personal life, but was he successful in hampering her career or ultimately sparking it? Being shipped off to Basilisk Station proved to be the best thing for Honor's career.

Had she made rank faster, she may not have been in position to accomplish all that she did, or forge the relationships that were.

Would Honor have even become the Salamander? And where would poor Grayson be? And ... what alliance?!

The Young's had nothing to do with getting her shipped off to Basilisk Station.

Isn't that quotation from a story that takes place before On Basilisk Station?

cthia wrote:

Captain Thomas Bachfisch strongly suspected that Dimitri Young used his position on the Naval Affairs Committee to hamper Honor Harrington's naval career after what she had done to his son Pavel.

Was Dimitri successful in hampering her career? Sure, he supported his son in his efforts to cause her severe emotional pain in her personal life, but was he successful in hampering her career or ultimately sparking it? Being shipped off to Basilisk Station proved to be the best thing for Honor's career.

Had she made rank faster, she may not have been in position to accomplish all that she did, or forge the relationships that were.

Would Honor have even become the Salamander? And where would poor Grayson be? And ... what alliance?!

SWM wrote:The Young's had nothing to do with getting her shipped off to Basilisk Station.

Isn't that quotation from a story that takes place before On Basilisk Station?

Didn't mean to suggest that Basilisk Station was on the Young's shoulders, but that I tend to clump the entire atmosphere of bashing Honor all in one pot, stirred by the Youngs.

It's from the wiki.

cthia wrote:

Captain Thomas Bachfisch strongly suspected that Dimitri Young used his position on the Naval Affairs Committee to hamper Honor Harrington's naval career after what she had done to his son Pavel.

cthia wrote:Was Dimitri successful in hampering her career? Sure, he supported his son in his efforts to cause her severe emotional pain in her personal life, but was he successful in hampering her career or ultimately sparking it? Being shipped off to Basilisk Station proved to be the best thing for Honor's career.

Had she made rank faster, she may not have been in position to accomplish all that she did, or forge the relationships that were.

Would Honor have even become the Salamander? And where would poor Grayson be? And ... what alliance?!

SWM wrote:The Young's had nothing to do with getting her shipped off to Basilisk Station.

Isn't that quotation from a story that takes place before On Basilisk Station?

Didn't mean to suggest that Basilisk Station was on the Young's shoulders, but that I tend to clump the entire atmosphere of bashing Honor all in one pot, stirred by the Youngs.

It's from the wiki.

But Pavel Young attempted to screw her over by abandoning her in the Basilisk system. Didn't work out that way, but then the bad guys always have trouble beating the author.

cthia wrote:

Captain Thomas Bachfisch strongly suspected that Dimitri Young used his position on the Naval Affairs Committee to hamper Honor Harrington's naval career after what she had done to his son Pavel.

Was Dimitri successful in hampering her career?

The quote is a summation of a conversation Capt Bachfish had with his exec after sending Elvis Santino home in disgrace -- Ms Midshipwoman Harrington, in the anthology Changer of Worlds. At that point, Honor had very little career to wreck but despite Elvis Santino's worst efforts managed to turn the entire situation into a gold star in her copybook.

Other short stories have featured various aristocratic members of the Conservative Association or other members of the "good ol' boy network" who tried and failed to present Honor's actions in a bad light. Generally the attempts failed spectacularly -- as Pavel's actions at Basilisk Station did -- and contrasted her actions with theirs to emphasize her in the best possible light.

In a round-about, ironic, way The enmity of the Youngs and the Conservativ4e Association Dimitri controlled, did more to bring Honor to the attention of the public and Naval Hierarchy which enhanced her career rather than hindered it.

cthia wrote:

SWM wrote:The Young's had nothing to do with getting her shipped off to Basilisk Station.

Isn't that quotation from a story that takes place before On Basilisk Station?

Didn't mean to suggest that Basilisk Station was on the Young's shoulders, but that I tend to clump the entire atmosphere of bashing Honor all in one pot, stirred by the Youngs.

It's from the wiki.

Well, then I don't know where that quote comes from. But it is certainly true that Dmitri Young tried to hamper Harrington's career. It is likely that he had some success in slowing her career down, up until Basilisk Station. After Basilisk Station, there weren't many opportunities for Dmitri to have any effect, and a few years later Dmitri died. But I don't think you can say that Dmitri sparked Harrington's career, since, as I said before, he had nothing to do with the postings which boosted her career.

cthia wrote:

SWM wrote:The Young's had nothing to do with getting her shipped off to Basilisk Station.

Isn't that quotation from a story that takes place before On Basilisk Station?

Didn't mean to suggest that Basilisk Station was on the Young's shoulders, but that I tend to clump the entire atmosphere of bashing Honor all in one pot, stirred by the Youngs.

It's from the wiki.

SWM wrote:
Well, then I don't know where that quote comes from. But it is certainly true that Dmitri Young tried to hamper Harrington's career. It is likely that he had some success in slowing her career down, up until Basilisk Station. After Basilisk Station, there weren't many opportunities for Dmitri to have any effect, and a few years later Dmitri died. But I don't think you can say that Dmitri sparked Harrington's career, since, as I said before, he had nothing to do with the postings which boosted her career.

But he was responsible for the atmosphere caused by the attitudes of some key naval officers and government officials. Janacek and High Ridge come to mind. Because he was the Conservative Party whip, backed by the North Hollow files, much of Honor's troubles, and postings, IMO, were indirectly related to the Young's - the personal strife in her life. In many ways I think Honor became the product of that strife in her life. Strife that is directly traceable back to the Young's.

In fact, I'm not sure about 'come what may,' if White Haven hadn't secretly nourished Honor's career.

Remember, the enmity between Honor and Pavel was ignited long before Basilisk Station - which implies that the Young's underhandedness was as well.

SWM wrote:The Young's had nothing to do with getting her shipped off to Basilisk Station.

Isn't that quotation from a story that takes place before On Basilisk Station?

cthia wrote:Didn't mean to suggest that Basilisk Station was on the Young's shoulders, but that I tend to clump the entire atmosphere of bashing Honor all in one pot, stirred by the Youngs.

It's from the wiki.

SWM wrote:
Well, then I don't know where that quote comes from. But it is certainly true that Dmitri Young tried to hamper Harrington's career. It is likely that he had some success in slowing her career down, up until Basilisk Station. After Basilisk Station, there weren't many opportunities for Dmitri to have any effect, and a few years later Dmitri died. But I don't think you can say that Dmitri sparked Harrington's career, since, as I said before, he had nothing to do with the postings which boosted her career.

cthia wrote:But he was responsible for the atmosphere caused by the attitudes of some key naval officers and government officials. Janacek and High Ridge come to mind. Because he was the Conservative Party whip, backed by the North Hollow files, much of Honor's troubles, and postings, IMO, were indirectly related to the Young's - the personal strife in her life. In many ways I think Honor became the product of that strife in her life. Strife that is directly traceable back to the Young's.

In fact, I'm not sure about 'come what may,' if White Haven hadn't secretly nourished Honor's career.

Remember, the enmity between Honor and Pavel was ignited long before Basilisk Station - which implies that the Young's underhandedness was as well.

Cthia, I didn't read the wiki, but SWM is on target.

Honor hammered Young into hamburger in the showers while they were both middies (1879-83 somewhere), and Youngs's father (Dmitri) got Santino assigned to War Maiden (1883) so she'd fail her middie cruise. Santino gets relieved for cause, she gets a medal and ensign a bit early. Win!

As Broadsword's exec (Long Way Home) she had to deal with a Young cousin (CDR Ngyuen Tyumen or however it was spelled) who was a jackass. But neither Honor nor Young-kin got physical, and it didn't get into direct conflict until the avalanche. Young-kin is relieved, Honor gets both public recognition and a medal. Win!

They don't meet again until Basilisk and then Hancock; but Pavel gets with Housman's cousin there to pass on slander. Doesn't work out for Young. Win!

For all those years after the shower, Young and his kin spread stories and slander about Honor. This doesn't reach the ears of the junior officers of Fearless, it is intended for senior officers. Balislisk was used by her supporters, but Basilisk is used by Honor's enemies too--she usurped command, disabled an unarmed dispatch boat (with Havenite casualties) and destroyed a freighter which almost got the SKM into a war(infuriating not only the Youngs, but the Liberals, and terrifying the Progressives). She disrupted the SKM's own commerce (ok, smuggling, but that is commerce) and insulted Hauptmann, a major industrialist and shipbuilder. And Haven calls her a convicted mass murderer and a maniac. This reduces Honor's win almost to a draw.

In Yeltsin, she attacks a diplomat, and refuses to back off from a confrontation with a vastly more powerful ship. Hotheaded and irresponsible, according to the Old Boy Network.

The spin they were putting on all that made Honor sound like a lunatic; which is what Sir Yancey Parks thought she was too, and Parks wasn't on the Young payroll. Or Hauptmann's either. He and Honor also weren't friends, just professionally polite (until he puts Paul on Honor's ship to rotate home). There is little in the text later about Sir Yancy.

Again, it all turns around and bites the Youngs' in the ass in SVW and FoD; and serves to cement the enmity of the Conservatives (Janacek, High Ridge, Young) and the Liberals (New Kiev, Houseman). And Hauptmann could buy additional enmity from the Progressives, or New Men if he wanted to.

The idea that it was the Young's in particular that made her the Salamander is interesting, but not necessary; she had already ticked off a foreign nation before Basilisk (Silesia, the Casimir raid) and if the efforts of the Peeps to sieze Basilisk had succeeded, she wouldn't have had Young to deal with at Hancock. It would have played out differently, but she would have got promoted up eventually.

Rob

edited but still too long!

Armed Neo-Bob wrote:

SWM wrote:The Young's had nothing to do with getting her shipped off to Basilisk Station.

Isn't that quotation from a story that takes place before On Basilisk Station?

cthia wrote:Didn't mean to suggest that Basilisk Station was on the Young's shoulders, but that I tend to clump the entire atmosphere of bashing Honor all in one pot, stirred by the Youngs.

It's from the wiki.

SWM wrote:Well, then I don't know where that quote comes from. But it is certainly true that Dmitri Young tried to hamper Harrington's career. It is likely that he had some success in slowing her career down, up until Basilisk Station. After Basilisk Station, there weren't many opportunities for Dmitri to have any effect, and a few years later Dmitri died. But I don't think you can say that Dmitri sparked Harrington's career, since, as I said before, he had nothing to do with the postings which boosted her career.

cthia wrote:But he was responsible for the atmosphere caused by the attitudes of some key naval officers and government officials. Janacek and High Ridge come to mind. Because he was the Conservative Party whip, backed by the North Hollow files, much of Honor's troubles, and postings, IMO, were indirectly related to the Young's - the personal strife in her life. In many ways I think Honor became the product of that strife in her life. Strife that is directly traceable back to the Young's.

In fact, I'm not sure about 'come what may,' if White Haven hadn't secretly nourished Honor's career.

Remember, the enmity between Honor and Pavel was ignited long before Basilisk Station - which implies that the Young's underhandedness was as well.

Cthia, I didn't read the wiki, but SWM is on target.

Honor hammered Young into hamburger in the showers while they were both middies (1879-83 somewhere), and Youngs's father (Dmitri) got Santino assigned to War Maiden (1883) so she'd fail her middie cruise. Santino gets relieved for cause, she gets a medal and ensign a bit early. Win!

As Broadsword's exec (Long Way Home) she had to deal with a Young cousin (CDR Ngyuen Tyumen or however it was spelled) who was a jackass. But neither Honor nor Young-kin got physical, and it didn't get into direct conflict until the avalanche. Young-kin is relieved, Honor gets both public recognition and a medal. Win!

They don't meet again until Basilisk and then Hancock; but Pavel gets with Housman's cousin there to pass on slander. Doesn't work out for Young. Win!

For all those years after the shower, Young and his kin spread stories and slander about Honor. This doesn't reach the ears of the junior officers of Fearless, it is intended for senior officers. Balislisk was used by her supporters, but Basilisk is used by Honor's enemies too--she usurped command, disabled an unarmed dispatch boat (with Havenite casualties) and destroyed a freighter which almost got the SKM into a war(infuriating not only the Youngs, but the Liberals, and terrifying the Progressives). She disrupted the SKM's own commerce (ok, smuggling, but that is commerce) and insulted Hauptmann, a major industrialist and shipbuilder. And Haven calls her a convicted mass murderer and a maniac. This reduces Honor's win almost to a draw.

In Yeltsin, she attacks a diplomat, and refuses to back off from a confrontation with a vastly more powerful ship. Hotheaded and irresponsible, according to the Old Boy Network.

The spin they were putting on all that made Honor sound like a lunatic; which is what Sir Yancey Parks thought she was too, and Parks wasn't on the Young payroll. Or Hauptmann's either. He and Honor also weren't friends, just professionally polite (until he puts Paul on Honor's ship to rotate home). There is little in the text later about Sir Yancy.

Again, it all turns around and bites the Youngs' in the ass in SVW and FoD; and serves to cement the enmity of the Conservatives (Janacek, High Ridge, Young) and the Liberals (New Kiev, Houseman). And Hauptmann could buy additional enmity from the Progressives, or New Men if he wanted to.

The idea that it was the Young's in particular that made her the Salamander is interesting, but not necessary; she had already ticked off a foreign nation before Basilisk (Silesia, the Casimir raid) and if the efforts of the Peeps to sieze Basilisk had succeeded, she wouldn't have had Young to deal with at Hancock. It would have played out differently, but she would have got promoted up eventually.

Rob

edited but still too long!

It is so easy to just go along with the assessment of someone else. The Young's created this negative assessment regarding Honor that traveled within the senior officer's ring. It became common knowledge that Harrington was a loose cannon. Not something that Honor herself cultivated. It was fire from the Youngs, and it later became easy for the likes of Hauptman, and anyone else so inclined (or held hostage by certain files) to add fuel. In other words, Honor's false negative reputation preceded her only after the sinful deeds of misrepresentation were seeded by the Youngs. IMHO.

I agree with you both, that all of the Youngs' tricks only served to cast the spotlight on a very capable officer.

Reference:

Dimitri Young was born on Manticore in the 1810s PD.[1] He pursued Carol Warner before she married Craig Warner. (HH1, HH4)

He was a high ranking member of the Conservative Association and served as the party whip in the House of Lords, and was considered by many to be the true brains behind the Association, even though the party's nominal leader was Baron High Ridge. He sat on the Naval Affairs Committee, and Captain Thomas Bachfisch strongly suspected that he had used that position to hamper Honor Harrington's naval career after what she had done to his son Pavel.

North Hollow had served as an officer in the Royal Manticoran Navy, but resigned his commission once he had achieved the rank of Commander in order to pursue his political career. (HHA3.1: MMH)

North Hollow's prominent political position was strengthened by his possession of the so-called "North Hollow files": a compendium of compromising and scandalous information on most of the Manticoran nobility which could, at the Earl's desire, ruin almost any political career in the Star Kingdom. The Earl's "chief of security" and special operations specialist was Georgia Sakristos (also known as Elaine Komandorski), the future Lady North Hollow.

Even though barely ninety T-years old at the beginning of the First Havenite-Manticoran War, Earl North Hollow had been confined to a counter-grav life-support chair after a life of over-indulgence and self-abuse.

North Hollow was the father of Pavel and Stefan Young. He used all his influence to keep his son -- and heir -- Pavel from getting executed for desertion and cowardice before the enemy. In the end, Pavel lived, but was striped of his rank and dishonorably discharged from the Navy as unfit to wear the Queen's uniform. The instant the court-martial justices proclaimed the verdict, North Hollow died of a heart attack.

It was Courvoisier who nourished her career -
and not secretly!

There were "two Navies" (two groups of officers) in RMN:
the Nobles and the Competents.
Each group nourished its own juniors.
Attacking the other's juniors ought to have been rare,
because it wasted energy. Better to help one's own.

HTM

[quote="cthia" unless I confused the attributions - htm]]
[snip - htm]
In fact, I'm not sure about 'come what may,' if White Haven hadn't secretly nourished Honor's career.
[snip - htm]
[/quote]