Logic behind splitting Lacoon?

Hutch wrote:

Draken wrote:RMN choice for Commerce raiding force are Nikes, so SLN will need SDs squadrons to get rid of unpleasant visitors.

Depending on how many Nike's are available. Using House of Steel as my reference, there were only 12 Nikes in service just prior to the BoM, and while they were in full-scale production, only the 'initial' production run would have been completed prior to Oyster Bay.

So maybe 60 additional Nikes', totally 72 in service, of which 16 are in Talbott with Mike's Tenth Fleet.

There are still 85+ Agamemmnons' out there, so they may be employed in the raiding missions.

We shall see, eventually.

Conversely, those Agamemmnons might be assigned to rear areas or 'less likely' SLN targets(such as Gryphon during 2nd BoM) and not to front line action in order to prevent giving the SLN a strong hint of the BC(P) concept, even if said concept has been evaluated as ultimately undesirable by the GA navies.

They have more than enough SD(P)s to compensate for absent BC(P)s, not to mention how many SD(P)s would be freed up by the BC(P)s' relegation to rear area duty.

Hutch wrote:Depending on how many Nike's are available. Using House of Steel as my reference, there were only 12 Nikes in service just prior to the BoM, and while they were in full-scale production, only the 'initial' production run would have been completed prior to Oyster Bay.

So maybe 60 additional Nikes', totally 72 in service, of which 16 are in Talbott with Mike's Tenth Fleet.

There are still 85+ Agamemmnons' out there, so they may be employed in the raiding missions.

We shall see, eventually.

munroburton wrote:Conversely, those Agamemmnons might be assigned to rear areas or 'less likely' SLN targets(such as Gryphon during 2nd BoM) and not to front line action in order to prevent giving the SLN a strong hint of the BC(P) concept, even if said concept has been evaluated as ultimately undesirable by the GA navies.

They have more than enough SD(P)s to compensate for absent BC(P)s, not to mention how many SD(P)s would be freed up by the BC(P)s' relegation to rear area duty.

I like that idea a lot more than mine, monroburton; in fact, I may have to start a thread on it...

Hutch wrote:

Hutch wrote:Depending on how many Nike's are available. Using House of Steel as my reference, there were only 12 Nikes in service just prior to the BoM, and while they were in full-scale production, only the 'initial' production run would have been completed prior to Oyster Bay.

So maybe 60 additional Nikes', totally 72 in service, of which 16 are in Talbott with Mike's Tenth Fleet.

There are still 85+ Agamemmnons' out there, so they may be employed in the raiding missions.

We shall see, eventually.

munroburton wrote:Conversely, those Agamemmnons might be assigned to rear areas or 'less likely' SLN targets(such as Gryphon during 2nd BoM) and not to front line action in order to prevent giving the SLN a strong hint of the BC(P) concept, even if said concept has been evaluated as ultimately undesirable by the GA navies.

They have more than enough SD(P)s to compensate for absent BC(P)s, not to mention how many SD(P)s would be freed up by the BC(P)s' relegation to rear area duty.

I like that idea a lot more than mine, monroburton; in fact, I may have to start a thread on it...

I like this idea as well. Since one of the major problems with the Agamemmnons is the tendency to shoot themselves dry, serving in a system defense role, where they are effectively acting as a mobile command center makes a lot of sense, since they will not, in general, be using their internal magazines, and in fact, will be able to reload from a central depot in the system. Makes a lot of sense.

Hutch wrote:Depending on how many Nike's are available. Using House of Steel as my reference, there were only 12 Nikes in service just prior to the BoM, and while they were in full-scale production, only the 'initial' production run would have been completed prior to Oyster Bay.

So maybe 60 additional Nikes', totally 72 in service, of which 16 are in Talbott with Mike's Tenth Fleet.

There are still 85+ Agamemmnons' out there, so they may be employed in the raiding missions.

We shall see, eventually.

munroburton wrote:Conversely, those Agamemmnons might be assigned to rear areas or 'less likely' SLN targets(such as Gryphon during 2nd BoM) and not to front line action in order to prevent giving the SLN a strong hint of the BC(P) concept, even if said concept has been evaluated as ultimately undesirable by the GA navies.

They have more than enough SD(P)s to compensate for absent BC(P)s, not to mention how many SD(P)s would be freed up by the BC(P)s' relegation to rear area duty.

Hutch wrote:I like that idea a lot more than mine, monroburton; in fact, I may have to start a thread on it...

fallsfromtrees wrote:I like this idea as well. Since one of the major problems with the Agamemmnons is the tendency to shoot themselves dry, serving in a system defense role, where they are effectively acting as a mobile command center makes a lot of sense, since they will not, in general, be using their internal magazines, and in fact, will be able to reload from a central depot in the system. Makes a lot of sense.

Fallsfromtrees, remember who and what they were facing when they shot themselves dry. Actually, we' ve never seen that happen in text, however much it has been discussed.

First, we don't know much about FF and BF nodes-- are they in the same places? Using the same supply ships? Or are they separate? Different bases in different systems, with BF in the Core, while FF bases mostly in the Shell (closer to the Verge)?

The biggest question is really, will the offensive kick off before New Years? By that time, if the projected reconstruction efforts were accurate, some replacement missiles will be available from San Martin. (I am not including defending Beowulf as part of the offensive here.)

The Aggies ammunition supplies run out fast, but only if they need to stack and launch everything in a do-or-die, last ditch effort. Against Sollie ships, they should be ok, as long as they are up against FF (which had no wallers).

For those who don't have House of Steel yet, here are the numbers.

The Aggies had 360 pods, with 14 missiles, or 5040 missiles total; Mk 16 missiles with a powered range around 3 to four times that of the Solarian Ships (using Javelin/Spatha). They fire 56 missiles in a salvo, every 12 seconds, without even stacking their fire. Which is 90 salvos, 3 times as many as a Saganami-C, with a heavier salvo density (especially if they stack them). They actually had more salvos than the original Medusas with the Mk-41 MDMs, or the original Mk-23s (before the flat-pack pods, a Medusa had 82 salvos).

By they time they "shoot themselves dry" the opposition (Nevadas? and smaller) will be scrap. And they can always either run away, or duck into stealth if they start running low. And, however they get deployed, it will be a division or small task group, not single ships.

Because of that firepower, I disagree with the notion of them in rear areas. I don't think Aggies will be in the back corners, even if the Nikes are better armored and defended. I think once the RMN takes the gloves off to operate offensively in Sollie-space, they will want to operate in as many systems as possible; I also believe that whatever the SLN may want to do, they're not going to get much done in less than a year. Meaning, I think there is enough time for Manticore to get some production started.

Genovese Sector had Indefatigables, as did Madras. But Nolan had Commodore Chalker's Rampart squadron, headed up by SLNS Lancelot. How many "Nolan" type detachments are there?

And officially, Maya as a sector only had a flotilla of destroyers and some second-rate "subscription ships;" how much opposition do you guys think will actually be there?

The Solarian League has always depended on the threat of its huge fleet, not the physical presence of powerful ships. It is big in the aggregate, but in individual systems, it isn't.

A Wolfhound could kill Chalker's flagship (Lancelot) without effort; an Aggie is gross overkill against anything less than a waller. If it isn't taking capital ship fire, the weaknesses of its armor will not be apparent to the SLN.

Also, there were around 85 Saganami-B's and a similar number of the Reliant III/IV (like Black Rose) which still significantly outgun Sollies. . . at least for now. If you got your hands on a list of FF fleet dispositions you could play hell against the older ships. Zilwicki can't be the only hacker in the Honorverse capable off hacking the Navy. Pat Givens probably won't even need any help from "Uncle Jaques".

Assuming combat ops off-screen didn't result in lots of losses in any of these classes in the last couple years. Which they certainly could have.

YMMV, as always.

Rob

Armed Neo-Bob wrote:

Hutch wrote:Depending on how many Nike's are available. Using House of Steel as my reference, there were only 12 Nikes in service just prior to the BoM, and while they were in full-scale production, only the 'initial' production run would have been completed prior to Oyster Bay.

So maybe 60 additional Nikes', totally 72 in service, of which 16 are in Talbott with Mike's Tenth Fleet.

There are still 85+ Agamemmnons' out there, so they may be employed in the raiding missions.

We shall see, eventually.

munroburton wrote:Conversely, those Agamemmnons might be assigned to rear areas or 'less likely' SLN targets(such as Gryphon during 2nd BoM) and not to front line action in order to prevent giving the SLN a strong hint of the BC(P) concept, even if said concept has been evaluated as ultimately undesirable by the GA navies.

They have more than enough SD(P)s to compensate for absent BC(P)s, not to mention how many SD(P)s would be freed up by the BC(P)s' relegation to rear area duty.

Hutch wrote:I like that idea a lot more than mine, monroburton; in fact, I may have to start a thread on it...

fallsfromtrees wrote:I like this idea as well. Since one of the major problems with the Agamemmnons is the tendency to shoot themselves dry, serving in a system defense role, where they are effectively acting as a mobile command center makes a lot of sense, since they will not, in general, be using their internal magazines, and in fact, will be able to reload from a central depot in the system. Makes a lot of sense.

Fallsfromtrees, remember who and what they were facing when they shot themselves dry. Actually, we' ve never seen that happen in text, however much it has been discussed.

First, we don't know much about FF and BF nodes-- are they in the same places? Using the same supply ships? Or are they separate? Different bases in different systems, with BF in the Core, while FF bases mostly in the Shell (closer to the Verge)?

The biggest question is really, will the offensive kick off before New Years? By that time, if the projected reconstruction efforts were accurate, some replacement missiles will be available from San Martin. (I am not including defending Beowulf as part of the offensive here.)

The Aggies ammunition supplies run out fast, but only if they need to stack and launch everything in a do-or-die, last ditch effort. Against Sollie ships, they should be ok, as long as they are up against FF (which had no wallers).

For those who don't have House of Steel yet, here are the numbers.

The Aggies had 360 pods, with 14 missiles, or 5040 missiles total; Mk 16 missiles with a powered range around 3 to four times that of the Solarian Ships (using Javelin/Spatha). They fire 56 missiles in a salvo, every 12 seconds, without even stacking their fire. Which is 90 salvos, 3 times as many as a Saganami-C, with a heavier salvo density (especially if they stack them). They actually had more salvos than the original Medusas with the Mk-41 MDMs, or the original Mk-23s (before the flat-pack pods, a Medusa had 82 salvos).

By they time they "shoot themselves dry" the opposition (Nevadas? and smaller) will be scrap. And they can always either run away, or duck into stealth if they start running low. And, however they get deployed, it will be a division or small task group, not single ships.

Because of that firepower, I disagree with the notion of them in rear areas. I don't think Aggies will be in the back corners, even if the Nikes are better armored and defended. I think once the RMN takes the gloves off to operate offensively in Sollie-space, they will want to operate in as many systems as possible; I also believe that whatever the SLN may want to do, they're not going to get much done in less than a year. Meaning, I think there is enough time for Manticore to get some production started.

Genovese Sector had Indefatigables, as did Madras. But Nolan had Commodore Chalker's Rampart squadron, headed up by SLNS Lancelot. How many "Nolan" type detachments are there?

And officially, Maya as a sector only had a flotilla of destroyers and some second-rate "subscription ships;" how much opposition do you guys think will actually be there?

The Solarian League has always depended on the threat of its huge fleet, not the physical presence of powerful ships. It is big in the aggregate, but in individual systems, it isn't.

A Wolfhound could kill Chalker's flagship (Lancelot) without effort; an Aggie is gross overkill against anything less than a waller. If it isn't taking capital ship fire, the weaknesses of its armor will not be apparent to the SLN.

Also, there were around 85 Saganami-B's and a similar number of the Reliant III/IV (like Black Rose) which still significantly outgun Sollies. . . at least for now. If you got your hands on a list of FF fleet dispositions you could play hell against the older ships. Zilwicki can't be the only hacker in the Honorverse capable off hacking the Navy. Pat Givens probably won't even need any help from "Uncle Jaques".

Assuming combat ops off-screen didn't result in lots of losses in any of these classes in the last couple years. Which they certainly could have.

YMMV, as always.

Rob

I've said before that the Agamemnons are essentially minelayers (or now that we've seen them, possibly ammunition ships) with fire control and other warship mission systems.

The RMN doesn't like building Fleet Train ships (minelayers or ammunition ships) with the ability to shoot at the enemy, because it encourages the ship's COs and their superiors to take risks with them that are suboptimal.

When the RMN built the Agamemnons, it essentially married the BC's offensive/defensive roles with that of their minelayers (built on fast BC hulls, but without the BC's offensive systems and only light defensive systems) strictly defensive role. Even in a ship with the mass and volume of 2 million tons, the result was a compromise that did not work very well against a peer opponent (eggshells armed with sledgehammers, as noted at Solon). And if lost to enemy action, the price in terms of combat power, personnel and financial cost was much more than losing even a whole LAC wing. I would expect that the same would be even more true for the GSN's Courvosiers with only half the mass and volume.

When Grayson built the Harrington SDP, they had enough mass and volume that the compromise between the missions of the SD and minelayer/ammunition ship was such that neither mission was impacted to the point were it couldn't be carried out. Although against a peer opponent, even the SDP can't as yet carry out the SD's mission of surviving in the wall of battle (as shown in the Battle of Manticore, the offensive lethality of the SDP is far more than its defensive capability).

However, the BCP exists, and until decommissioned will be used. And the SLN is NOT a peer opponent, by Haven sector standards it is at best a 3rd or 4th rate navy.

So the question is which would be the better use of the BCP? Use it defensively in the rear area to free up the SDPs for offensive missions? Or send it out on offensive raids while the SDPs play defense. If it was just the GA against the SLN, it would be easier to determine the best use of the BCPs. But there are at least 2 jokers in the deck that will affect the GA's thinking on this, one of which they know about (the Mesan Alignment Navy) and one they don't know as yet (the Renaissance Factor).

How this will affect their thinking is an interesting question, which hopefully we will see answered in the next Honorverse book. Until then, let the speculation (also known as SWAGs--Scientific Wild Ass Guesses) continue.

I don't think the GA is going to move in the direction of general commerce raiding against all the SL and related interests. That would work against the idea of getting systems or groups of systems to effectively withdraw from the SL since those systems loseing commerical traffic to the raiders are going to both hurt by it and upset with the losses.

Perhaps targeted raiding against SLN assets would work better. Warships jumping and capturing (if not just destroying) civilian transports is using the lash instead of reason.

Taking SLN transports sends an entirely different message. Sure, SLN can ship materials in otherwise undesignated freights but is the GA makes it clear that any ship entering a system being maintained as a FF or BF logistics node is subject to being seized or destroyed - and then sticks to just that and SLN fleet train ships- that shifts things from open warfare on commerce to striking naval assets.

It's best used as an economy of force unit. Like a cavalry regiment, it's got outsized firepower but isn't that resilient. It's pretty outstanding at raids as long as you remember that economy of force units are NOT supposed to become decisively engaged. And load Mk23s instead of Mk16s....

Vince wrote:When the RMN built the Agamemnons, it essentially married the BC's offensive/defensive roles with that of their minelayers (built on fast BC hulls, but without the BC's offensive systems and only light defensive systems) strictly defensive role. Even in a ship with the mass and volume of 2 million tons, the result was a compromise that did not work very well against a peer opponent (eggshells armed with sledgehammers, as noted at Solon). And if lost to enemy action, the price in terms of combat power, personnel and financial cost was much more than losing even a whole LAC wing. I would expect that the same would be even more true for the GSN's Courvosiers with only half the mass and volume.

When Grayson built the Harrington SDP, they had enough mass and volume that the compromise between the missions of the SD and minelayer/ammunition ship was such that neither mission was impacted to the point were it couldn't be carried out. Although against a peer opponent, even the SDP can't as yet carry out the SD's mission of surviving in the wall of battle (as shown in the Battle of Manticore, the offensive lethality of the SDP is far more than its defensive capability).

That last bit is true, but I'm not sure how well a 'classic' SD would have stood up in a fight of several hundred on a side.

It would have taken longer but that kind of force allows missile concentrations, even from conventional ships, more than sufficient to locally overload the defensive firepower of the opposing wall. And those laser heads aren't that much more survivable to the SD than the SD(P) - imagine 40 or 50 SDs concentrating a broadside against a single opposing SD. Nobody had ever fought an engagement with that number of SDs so no combat would ever have ever been that concentrated and intense; regardless of the specific design of the wallers.

IOW I don't think conventional SDs would be able to "carry out the SD's mission of surviving in the wall of battle" when it's hundreds and hundreds of them engaging.

Vince wrote: <snip> I would expect that the same would be even more true for the GSN's Courvosiers with only half the mass and volume.

Agree with the rest, but I think you are confusing the GSN BCs.

The Courvosier class BC is a Reliant clone without lasers and a few extra missile launchers massing ~900Ktons. The Courvosier II class BC(p) masses almost the same as the Agamemnon class and has both a pod bay AND some broadside launchers.

I wish we had some more data on the 3rd existing BC(p) - The IAN Blucher class.

Personally, I see the BC(p)s on the front lines for the forseeable future. Despite their hull's fragility, their active defenses are superior to many Dreadnaughts - coupled with Keyhole's ability to roll wedge and still have active defenses, they can probably routinely withstand fire that would destroy a DN, just with a MUCH higher probability of a golden BB.

Even after they are deemed a 2nd tier ship, I can see them being used as a fast ammo carrier in hot zones - after all, if you have to risk an ammo carrier - wouldn't it be better if it was one the opponent feared messing with WITHOUT using a proponderance of capitol ships?

Brigade XO wrote:I don't think the GA is going to move in the direction of general commerce raiding ...

That IS the essence of Lacoon II, which has already been ordered. It happens to be the best way to demonstrate the SLN doesn't offer any effective protection to its member systems.

In some ways, commerce raiding is like a hoodlum's protection racket. The GA isn't going to be soliciting protection payments, though; they're going to be demonstrating that the "protection payments" they've been paying the SL/SLN for decades are just wasted.