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Black Powder and Rate of Fire

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Re: Black Powder and Rate of Fire
Post by saber964   » Sun Dec 07, 2014 4:59 pm

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hack12 wrote:The "normal" load of basic ammunition for a "rifleman" are approximately:
Napoleonic Era/American Civil War - 50 Rounds in Ready Pouch plus 60 additional rounds in their packs
World War One - 50-70 Rounds Basic Load (Approx) plus often a bandolier or other additional carrier with 100 Rounds
World War Two - Same as WWI (British WWII era manuals state 50 rounds for each rifleman)
Korea - Same as WW I & II
Modern - 210 Basic Combat Load (7 Magazines with 30 rounds - though most soldiers only load 28 rounds due to feed issues)

The increase in ammo was the reason for the switch to 5.56x45mm is about half the weight of 7.62x51mm during the Vietnam era.

One side note is that generally soldiers and even marines will take as much ammo as physically possible as the basic combat load will last for maybe one firefight. Never forgetting that they also have to carry squad/platoon ammo and combat gear. Most modern light infantry (see Rangers) carry 2 60mm Mortar rounds, 100 rounds 7.62 for M240, grenades, AT-4 (two in the squad), 2-4 grenades of all types, and other assorted goodies. This does not include Javelin systems or other specialized gear.



Most infantryman will carry as much ammo as they can safely getaway with, I talked with my brother (USA Staff Sargent 17 years) He said that he always carried at a minimum 300 rounds plus at least 5 or 6 clipsin the backpack, He also said it was not uncommon for every man in the squad to carry an extra belt (100 rounds) of ammo for the SAW.
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Re: Black Powder and Rate of Fire
Post by n7axw   » Sun Dec 07, 2014 5:44 pm

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Draken wrote:15 is too much, maybe 12-10 per minute. I'm thinking about typical conditions when there no need to hurry.


Given that the Mandrayans and St. Klymans are already at a round every 5 seconds, the rate of fire from the M96 is not going to be able to be too much faster before the barrel droops!

Don
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Re: Black Powder and Rate of Fire
Post by Draken   » Sun Dec 07, 2014 6:38 pm

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n7axw wrote:
Draken wrote:15 is too much, maybe 12-10 per minute. I'm thinking about typical conditions when there no need to hurry.


Given that the Mandrayans and St. Klymans are already at a round every 5 seconds, the rate of fire from the M96 is not going to be able to be too much faster before the barrel droops!

Don

When they will need RoF they will fire as fast as possible and probably one round per 3-4 seconds, but after longer period at that speed barrel will be useless.
On the other hand if they quickly develop some kind of Gatling gun or machine gun these could have much higher RoF without any issues, cus they barrel is bigger and have some kind of radiator.
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Re: Black Powder and Rate of Fire
Post by Henry Brown   » Sun Dec 07, 2014 8:27 pm

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n7axw wrote:
Given that the Mandrayans and St. Klymans are already at a round every 5 seconds, the rate of fire from the M96 is not going to be able to be too much faster before the barrel droops!

Don


I'm not as certain that barrel overheating is going to be that much of a problem. From what I understand from other forum threads, the M-96 is loosely patterned on the Lee-Enfield. Which does have the reputation of being the fastest military bolt action rifle. But even with the highest sustained rate of fire of the bolt actions, I don't remember reading accounts of the Lee-Enfield having significant issues with overheating. If the Lee-Enfield didn't overheat, why are we assuming the M-96 will?
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Re: Black Powder and Rate of Fire
Post by fallsfromtrees   » Sun Dec 07, 2014 9:22 pm

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Henry Brown wrote:
n7axw wrote:
Given that the Mandrayans and St. Klymans are already at a round every 5 seconds, the rate of fire from the M96 is not going to be able to be too much faster before the barrel droops!

Don


I'm not as certain that barrel overheating is going to be that much of a problem. From what I understand from other forum threads, the M-96 is loosely patterned on the Lee-Enfield. Which does have the reputation of being the fastest military bolt action rifle. But even with the highest sustained rate of fire of the bolt actions, I don't remember reading accounts of the Lee-Enfield having significant issues with overheating. If the Lee-Enfield didn't overheat, why are we assuming the M-96 will?

Does the fact the the first models of the M-96 are going to be using black powder and the Lee-Enfield was designed to use smokeless powder make a difference?
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Re: Black Powder and Rate of Fire
Post by phillies   » Sun Dec 07, 2014 9:32 pm

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cralkhi wrote:
Draken wrote:Aluminium is very useful metal, if I'm correct it has high melting point, similar to modern steel, but is much cheaper to get.


The melting point of aluminum is quite low (660 C vs 1538 C for iron).

Also, aluminum is cheap now, but that's made using a process that uses huge amounts of electricity, unavailable to Charis. At one time it was more expensive than gold, and that would probably be true for Charis if they know it exists at all (or if Merlin pointed it out).


The issue for deformation is the softening temperature, not the melting point.
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Re: Black Powder and Rate of Fire
Post by Henry Brown   » Sun Dec 07, 2014 9:46 pm

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fallsfromtrees wrote:
Henry Brown wrote:I'm not as certain that barrel overheating is going to be that much of a problem. From what I understand from other forum threads, the M-96 is loosely patterned on the Lee-Enfield. Which does have the reputation of being the fastest military bolt action rifle. But even with the highest sustained rate of fire of the bolt actions, I don't remember reading accounts of the Lee-Enfield having significant issues with overheating. If the Lee-Enfield didn't overheat, why are we assuming the M-96 will?

Does the fact the the first models of the M-96 are going to be using black powder and the Lee-Enfield was designed to use smokeless powder make a difference?


From what I remember, there was a previous British army design which was similar to the Lee-Enfield. It originally used black powder and worked fine. But when the British army switched to smokeless, it experienced problems with the rifling wearing out. This was because of the increased velocity due to the new powder. However, this was a wear issue, not an overheating issue. It's not the same thing, but it does seem to indicate that powder type could be significant.
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Re: Black Powder and Rate of Fire
Post by Weird Harold   » Sun Dec 07, 2014 9:58 pm

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fallsfromtrees wrote:Does the fact the the first models of the M-96 are going to be using black powder and the Lee-Enfield was designed to use smokeless powder make a difference?


It shouldn't.

From the Lee-Enfield wiki:

The Lee-Enfield rifle was derived from the earlier Lee-Metford, a mechanically similar black-powder rifle, which combined James Paris Lee's rear-locking bolt system with a barrel featuring rifling designed by William Ellis Metford.


Further reading suggests the difference between the two is primarily the shape of the rifling lands.

The M-96 was designed with the upgrade to smokeless powder in mind, so the transition should amount to changing ammo.
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Re: Black Powder and Rate of Fire
Post by Undercover Fat Kid   » Sun Dec 07, 2014 10:18 pm

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I'm not convinced that heat is going to be a major factor for bolt rifles. I've run a mosin, literally as fast as I could fed it and work the action, until oil was cooking out of the hand guards and rolling down the stock. I stopped when the 75ft Carolina pine almost landed on me, but I'd gone through over 200 rounds first.
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Re: Black Powder and Rate of Fire
Post by n7axw   » Mon Dec 08, 2014 12:00 am

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I'm not convinced it will be a problem either. But I was inviting Draken to expand upon the implications of his thesis.

Don
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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