HFQ Official Snippet #11

Hi Don, guys;

Isolated troops forced to fort up won't have much food to stockpile, and will exhaust whatever then can grab locally immediately rather quickly, so I wouldn't expect much of a siege required to encourage their surrender.

The time factor to prepare for a siege is the Achilles' Heel of this discussion, ie even assuming a MHoGatA CO recognizes the need to entrench, will Clyntahn let him?

The amount of food reserve that a MHoGatA sub army of 400,000 men could accumulate over normal operations is doubtful since such an accumulation isn't part of the normal supply operations, ie the month's required to be stockpiled for a siege would require massive preparations that are unlikely to be approved by Clyntahn.

Then there's the problem of digging trenches etc but not tunnels or bunkers for sleeping quarters for EVERYONE in range, so a lot of CoGA soldiers are going to wake up dead because the CoGA armies still don't know the effective ranges of the ICA weapons and thus impossible to plan for, which are going to be seriously upgraded even further when the smokeless powder propellants and new high explosives make their debut on Haven this summer.

Rommel's book "Infantry Attacks" describes his battalion's practice of digging much deeper than most allied armies bothered to do, but destroying such bunkers didn't require 12,000 lb Tallboys.

If the ICA actually had to conduct such a siege of suggested cities etc, barges and dragons could easily bring up 22 ton 10"naval guns to obliterate bunkers and flatten trenches faster than than the defenses could respond, while smaller 8" [11 tons, IIRC], 6", and 5" guns could take out bunkers with direct fire as well as destroying bivouac areas as I've previously described, along with road convoys and canal barges.

Again I don't think the MHoGatA can react fast enough to smaller more mobile, agile opponents with far more effective weapons.

I could see either DE and EHM baiting the MHoGatA sub army they face while the other slips around its flank to cut off its supply line, or BGV and Symkyn doing the same to the northern MHoGatA sub army, and have it starving, cut off, while attacking the vulnerable and ignorant sections at will before the G04 has a clue.

L


[quote="n7axw"][quote="Weird Harold"]*quote="anwi"*I'm no military engineer, either, so I have to speculate, but I envisage a lot of dirt. My point of reference would be WWI trenches. If you dig in deep enough, you'd need today's bunker busters or those Tallboy types munitions of WW2. Both are out of scope for the ICA, moreover they could not actually deploy these munitions lacking aerial capabilities.
*quote*

As has been pointed out in various threads regarding Trench-works, there is too much front and not enough soldiers for WWI western front trenches; The only possible model from R/W history is entrenched cities/strong-points a la Crimean War or American Civil War. Tactics both sides are already using, FWIW, where there are choke points to block or cities to defend.

*quote="anwi"*Barring that, the CoGA could dig in around e.g. a city. The ICA could certainly keep up an annoying level of bombardment, but the "kill ratio" would likely be too low to cut down CoGA units to a level where their defensive capabilities collapse. *quote*

Perhaps the CoGA will learn to build more sophisticated trench-works than the ICA has encountered so far, but Charis has had little trouble reducing AoG entrenchments, while the AoG has run into a meat-grinder when they've attacked entrenched Charisian defensive positions.[/quote]

Hi Harold,

What you say here is my point with my comment that with the exception of strong points if isolated bodies of isolated troops cut off who've been forced to fort up, the war will be mobile.

Don[/quote]

Hi Anwi,

I agree this is pretty hypothetical.

The problems with a fortified Aivahnstyn, is its perimeter is split into 3 bits of land, plus Kaitswyrth only had around 9,000 rifles left after DE was through with him, with any replacement rifles given to the MHoGatA instead, he's in a world of hurt with the perimeter for the AoG rather limited, NTM his army and the rifles are split between Aivahnstyn and the position just beyond the forest, both of which can isolated by the scout snipers, and the dragoon brigades fairly easily.

Given the ICA/alliance's far smaller forces, their food and supply reserve is proportionally much greater than the CoGA armies given the same size barges etc, especially the MHoGatA, so pursuit is much easier for them than I think you give them credit.
L

anwi wrote:

Charybdis wrote:
(snip)
The thing to remember is that deep, effective trenching does require engineering as well as massive man-hours, in short it is EXPENSIVE and must be traded off against need. While Charis angle-guns are now infamous to the CoGA, they are still working on effective countermeasures. It is illogical to go to the most expensive countermeasure before the need becomes apparent, especially if you (CoGA) are becoming financially strapped. Another fact to face is that not all terrain is suited to trenching and that desire then shifts to above-ground bunkering that tends to draw the eye and artillery!

Well, I'd answer that man-power is probably the only thing the CoGA has aplenty. So, effective trenches would be well within their range of realistic options. Bunkers (e.g. from reinforced contrete) are probably not realistic. And as to weaponry that would actually allow them to take on the ICA on an equal footing, we probably agree that they don't have them either. But I agree on the fact that not all Terrain is suitable, and the CoGA would ideally have to prepare their defensive positions in rear areas before the ICA gets there. (see below)

Charybdis wrote:
The next critique that I have for trenching in this case is that it comes into its own in times of static war. (snip) I do not see that happening on Safehold because Charis knows that it cannot do well in a 'sitzkrieg' and need aggressive tactics like those of Green Valley and his compatriots. If you keep the lines in motion, the enemy has no time to dig-in.

I agree that the ICA will try to keep the pressure up, and with Clyntahn running the show and punishing even discussions of a defensive strategy with wanton torture, Magwair is not likely go down that route anytime soon, at least not voluntarily. However, there should be quite some fortifications at places like e.g. Aivahnstyn. So, if the CoGA doesn't manage to loose a large part of the current troops in the failed attack we're kind of expecting, they should at least be able to draw back on their well established transport routes into a defensive setting before the ICA logistics could be extended to resupply the ICA units in pursuit.
In any case, I don't envisage these defensive scenarios for the CoGA to be relevant in the immediate future (although it would be the CoGA's best option). So this discussion is a bit hypothetical, just to be clear.

Weird Harold wrote:As has been pointed out in various threads regarding Trench-works, there is too much front and not enough soldiers for WWI western front trenches; The only possible model from R/W history is entrenched cities/strong-points a la Crimean War or American Civil War. Tactics both sides are already using, FWIW, where there are choke points to block or cities to defend.

Yes, we won't see trenches spanning a whole continent, the potential frontage is simply to long. But with let's say 1 Mio. soldiers, the CoGA could do more than just defending one city.

Weird Harold wrote:
Perhaps the CoGA will learn to build more sophisticated trench-works than the ICA has encountered so far, but Charis has had little trouble reducing AoG entrenchments, while the AoG has run into a meat-grinder when they've attacked entrenched Charisian defensive positions.

I'm not sure that those examples of CoGA defenses really amounted to trenches to the standard of WW1. It'd see it more as a fighting position, less than 2 metres deep, without timbering and supporting trenches. Incidentally, there is still an abatis e.g. at Fort Tairys. And those are of course insufficient for the kind of artillery the ICA uses, at least in a serious siege situation.

n7axw wrote:
What you say here is my point with my comment that with the exception of strong points if isolated bodies of isolated troops cut off who've been forced to fort up, the war will be mobile.

I would agree that the war won't be immobile. If you're looking for a RW analogue, the eastern front of WW1 comes to mind.
That said, I'm still sceptical if even the ICA could maintain the lines of communication to a large advance army by just using secondary roads for an extended period of time. I would still think that they'd need at least high roads and preferably canals. And even in East Haven there should be large patches of wilderness. So there will be choke points.
I'm aware of what BGV is doing. Only, he should assume that his group can be resupplied via the Sylmahn gap (or even the Ice Ash) soon.

As I understand BGV's intent from the textev, clearing out the Sylvahn Gap by completing the destruction of Wyrshym's army is first on his agenda. Then bringing up the blocking forces along with simplifying his supply route will follow. Then I would anticpate him using the same network of canals and high roads that Wyrshym did as he moves west.

I would agree that using secondary roads over anything but short distances would quickly become a bottle neck.

Don

n7axw wrote:As I understand BGV's intent from the textev, clearing out the Sylvahn Gap by completing the destruction of Wyrshym's army is first on his agenda. Then bringing up the blocking forces along with simplifying his supply route will follow. Then I would anticpate him using the same network of canals and high roads that Wyrshym did as he moves west.

I would agree that using secondary roads over anything but short distances would quickly become a bottle neck.

Don

Well, historical armies, had to use more than one road and/or cross country if they wanted to move faster than a crawl due to the length of the convoy otherwise. A twenty feet wide road with laterals of 6 feet (which should be approximately the gabarit of an highway) will
allow at most 16 men marching abreast and in loose march order probably 12. With 1 yard depth ranks and intervals every 12 ranks, which is very dense, the 50 000 strong corps will need 5+ miles without even adding little things like the artillery, cavalry and logistic wagons. With them you are in the 15 miles range which means that half the day is used just doing the concertina between head and tail.

Secondary roads, even small, longer and bad reduce the pressure on the main axis and that's good.

Going cross country for infantry in winter, even as well equipped as Charis is, is only possible for short distance and not too big a troop I think.

If they can use canals, it is a different story as the density increase and the rate of advance is only limited by the number of barges available.

alj_sf wrote:

n7axw wrote:As I understand BGV's intent from the textev, clearing out the Sylvahn Gap by completing the destruction of Wyrshym's army is first on his agenda. Then bringing up the blocking forces along with simplifying his supply route will follow. Then I would anticpate him using the same network of canals and high roads that Wyrshym did as he moves west.

I would agree that using secondary roads over anything but short distances would quickly become a bottle neck.

Don

Well, historical armies, had to use more than one road and/or cross country if they wanted to move faster than a crawl due to the length of the convoy otherwise. A twenty feet wide road with laterals of 6 feet (which should be approximately the gabarit of an highway) will
allow at most 16 men marching abreast and in loose march order probably 12. With 1 yard depth ranks and intervals every 12 ranks, which is very dense, the 50 000 strong corps will need 5+ miles without even adding little things like the artillery, cavalry and logistic wagons. With them you are in the 15 miles range which means that half the day is used just doing the concertina between head and tail.

Secondary roads, even small, longer and bad reduce the pressure on the main axis and that's good.

Going cross country for infantry in winter, even as well equipped as Charis is, is only possible for short distance and not too big a troop I think.

If they can use canals, it is a different story as the density increase and the rate of advance is only limited by the number of barges available.

I was presuming the use of barges. That, of course would be contingent on seizing the locks intact.

Don

Hi Don,

From the latest maps there is a high road directly to Five Forks from Guarnak, though it meanders a little.

L

n7axw wrote:As I understand BGV's intent from the textev, clearing out the Sylvahn Gap by completing the destruction of Wyrshym's army is first on his agenda. Then bringing up the blocking forces along with simplifying his supply route will follow. Then I would anticpate him using the same network of canals and high roads that Wyrshym did as he moves west.

I would agree that using secondary roads over anything but short distances would quickly become a bottle neck.

Don

Another factor we haven't really considered here is the character of those Harchongian serfs. The textev suggests that they are pretty tough and accustomed to hardship.

The other thing I was wondering is how they are planning to use those troops armed with slings other than to soak up rifle fire...


Whiling away the time to the next snippet,

Don

n7axw wrote:Another factor we haven't really considered here is the character of those Harchongian serfs. The textev suggests that they are pretty tough and accustomed to hardship.

The other thing I was wondering is how they are planning to use those troops armed with slings other than to soak up rifle fire...


Whiling away the time to the next snippet,

Don

And the wait is now over

n7axw wrote:[snip]The other thing I was wondering is how they are planning to use those troops armed with slings other than to soak up rifle fire...

Betcha they know how to use staff-slings. And the Temple can certainly make Napoleonic-style sputtering-fuse grenades. Heck, given a little ingenuity about the casing, the army can probably make those locally; some nails, some burlap, and some varnish will do you for the casings, and then you fill it with gunpowder, plunk it in the sling, light the sputtering fuse, whirl it round your head and let fly.

Very short range but the sort of thing you might (try to) use to clear entrenchments from the flanks.