Space Stations, Forts and Strategies

Jonathan_S wrote:snip

And from what I've heard tuning those giant F-5 engines to run smoothly and not generate hot spots that would eat the rocket bell was more art than science. None of them worked perfected straight off the line, they all needed individualized adjustments. But the people skilled and practiced in that art are long retired (or dead) and aren't in practice. So you might as well design a modern descendant of the engine since you've got to relearn all the tuning tricks anyway, so no reason to stick to 50 year old plans and materials since they don't give you "proven off the shelf capabilities" anyway.

fallsfromtrees wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:snip

And from what I've heard tuning those giant F-5 engines to run smoothly and not generate hot spots that would eat the rocket bell was more art than science. None of them worked perfected straight off the line, they all needed individualized adjustments. But the people skilled and practiced in that art are long retired (or dead) and aren't in practice. So you might as well design a modern descendant of the engine since you've got to relearn all the tuning tricks anyway, so no reason to stick to 50 year old plans and materials since they don't give you "proven off the shelf capabilities" anyway.

Minor nit. The first stages engines for the Saturn V rocket were F-1 engines built by Rocketdyne division of North American Aviation. The tuning process was actually the test firing each engine subjected to (at Huntville, since that was the only place that had a test stand large enough to handle a 1.5 million lb thrust. The second and third stages of the Saturn V were powered by J-2 engines, which were unique in the day, as they were in fact restartable, even though that feature was not used for the 5 second stage engines, it was for the third stage engine as that was how trans-lunar injection was done.

kzt wrote:So to build a new S5 you need to recreate the US industrial infrastructure circa 1960, or do a complete redesign based on the existing plans using equipment that is currently commercially available. A redesign requires full re-certification, which is a very long process due to the fact that huge rocket boosters carrying people are pretty obviously inherently dangerous and you need to do a very methodical step-by step part, assembly, module, entire system test program. And you can't even start testing a module until you have all the parts, so those custom parts that require you to build a new production facility are a bottleneck.

Does this suggest to you a possible issue with casually restarting production of Manticore's highest tech equipment on a totally different planet with virtually every one of the original part suppliers completely obliterated?

kzt wrote:

Armed Neo-Bob wrote:I wasn't aware of Fogbank, but there was a lot of talk after the fact that someone at NASA had the plans for the Saturn V rocket destroyed, so no one could cancel the space shuttle (which was delayed, and over-budget). And so, when NASA decided they needed a high-altitude rocket, they couldn't build any more of them and pushed another Air Force rocket into service (Delta).

No, the plans all exist. The problem NASA has with the S5 is that the plans call for specific commercial parts made by specific vendors. Tens of thousands of different parts from thousands of vendors. Many of the vendors are no longer in business, almost none of the parts are still being made under that name, and very very few are still being made to the same specs.

And while there are complete plans for the vehicle, there are not design documents for every single commercial off-the-shelf valve, solenoid, transformer, 4 bit processor, bolt, etc.

So to build a new S5 you need to recreate the US industrial infrastructure circa 1960, or do a complete redesign based on the existing plans using equipment that is currently commercially available. A redesign requires full re-certification, which is a very long process due to the fact that huge rocket boosters carrying people are pretty obviously inherently dangerous and you need to do a very methodical step-by step part, assembly, module, entire system test program. And you can't even start testing a module until you have all the parts, so those custom parts that require you to build a new production facility are a bottleneck.

Does this suggest to you a possible issue with casually restarting production of Manticore's highest tech equipment on a totally different planet with virtually every one of the original part suppliers completely obliterated?

JeffEngel wrote:

kzt wrote:So to build a new S5 you need to recreate the US industrial infrastructure circa 1960, or do a complete redesign based on the existing plans using equipment that is currently commercially available. A redesign requires full re-certification, which is a very long process due to the fact that huge rocket boosters carrying people are pretty obviously inherently dangerous and you need to do a very methodical step-by step part, assembly, module, entire system test program. And you can't even start testing a module until you have all the parts, so those custom parts that require you to build a new production facility are a bottleneck.

Does this suggest to you a possible issue with casually restarting production of Manticore's highest tech equipment on a totally different planet with virtually every one of the original part suppliers completely obliterated?

Three points:
1) In the text, presumably knowledgeable people seem sanguine enough about it, so we've that reason to suppose it's not as much of a problem in the Honorverse and under the circumstances as we may otherwise expect.
2) While Beowulf hasn't been deploying at all or building much if any of the new Manticoran hardware, to keep it out of the view of the SLN, they've been in the loop and have presumably kept an eye on the industrial requirements they'd need to satisfy for it.
3) Chances are, machine shops are a whole lot more fast and flexible in 4000odd A.D. than in 1960 or 2014. So going from blueprints to mass production may well be a whole lot faster and easier.

Relax wrote:They will still be building the machines to build the machines to build the machines to build the parts to build the assembly lines to build the testing equipment to build the clean rooms to build the vibrations labs to obtain a certified part long after 6 months has come and gone.

Weird Harold wrote:

Relax wrote:They will still be building the machines to build the machines to build the machines to build the parts to build the assembly lines to build the testing equipment to build the clean rooms to build the vibrations labs to obtain a certified part long after 6 months has come and gone.

Why would they need to 3D print 3D printers to Print more 3D printers to 3D print missile parts?

Relax wrote:Why would they need to 3D print 3D printers to Print more 3D printers to 3D print missile parts?

Weird Harold wrote:

Relax wrote:Why would they need to 3D print 3D printers to Print more 3D printers to 3D print missile parts?

Why do you not start running out of the womb?

Relax wrote:They are rebuilding the F1 engines today for going to mars. They cheated. Ditched the plans. Used lasers to create a 3d map. Now have entire engine in CAD 3d. Running FEA, etc. Got rid of 1/3 of the components that were all individually welded and instead used large forged parts. Recently test fired the fuel pump portion. Huntsville AL is too built up and cannot be used to test fire the full engine. Need $$$ to build a new stand. When this gets completed will test fire a new F1 engine. Can read about it at NASA and at space.com. Enjoy your search.