Get rid of the Income tax?

The E wrote:It amazes me how much you guys seem to trust in corporations to pass on operational savings to their customers.

Hey, it's like politicans taking a pay cut by making their COLA a tenth of a percent lower while raising the pay scale for attending a committee meeting.

The E wrote:Well, it's not so much trust in the government as it is trust in the basic motivations of a government being more likely to produce good outcomes for a majority of people.

Corporations, to put it mildly, are sociopaths. They will, without hesitation, fuck with the public good if doing so will get a higher profit than being altruistic.

See also: http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-st ... -mars.html

Well first I need to apologize I didn't follow your link.

Next we need to specify which corporations.

I worked as a farm hand for a corporation in the 1980's. Yep knew the boss and all his kids. Matter of fact I worked pitching hay right along side all of them at one point or another(well not the boss he was 60 something at that time). But they all must be evil by your definition.

Sorry I disagree.

Just as many if not more governments(politicians and with respect some bureaucrats <shrug>) are the same. Not worried about the public good but keeping/expnading their job. Way it is. If they can convince people they are serving the public good, their in like Flynn. Putin comes to mind.

Blanket statements are wildly inaccurate most of the time.\

T2M

PS. Probably the last post here for a while. Need to see what others say.

The E wrote:

thinkstoomuch wrote:And I am amazed that you trust a monopoly like the government to get it right in most aspects.

Well, it's not so much trust in the government as it is trust in the basic motivations of a government being more likely to produce good outcomes for a majority of people.

Corporations, to put it mildly, are sociopaths. They will, without hesitation, fuck with the public good if doing so will get a higher profit than being altruistic.

See also: http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-st ... -mars.html

So are governments and bureaucracies. They aren't there to help you, most politicians and the higher ups in the bureaucracies are there to line their own pockets. They use the public and basically lie their asses off to pander to the public, saying its for the common good or some other schlock like that. All the while taking pay offs and getting special deals that increase -their- bank accounts and if any legislation or bureaucratic rules might affect them, they write in exemptions for themselves. If a corporation does something nefarious, it can go out of business as its competitors will jump on it and take market share. Governments and bureaucracies have no such competition.

Over all though I think the culture of the business and government/bureaucracies should change to something better, but business isn't in the business of altruistic if it wants to survive. They have to look out for the bottom line and profit for the shareholders (which is not evil or bad since they are the ones that own the company).

Zakharra wrote: Those few rich (several million people) still pay the vast majority of income taxes, especially since 49-50% of the US population doesn't pay -any- income taxes.

You wrote US population. Young couples with children, first time job workers, and the non-working elderly, make up a large share of the population.
Of the working wage earners, without any deductions, making $10,000+ a year, 100% pay federal income taxes.

You have too much debt. Norway could, but you can't afford to.

You need to raise taxes for everyone to 50% and put in a base tax free limit, say $15-25,000.

Then pay down your debt.

Half taxes for business and capital gains dividends and interest and make it a flat 25% with a $30-50,000 base level.

Eliminate all sales taxes and state taxes. And have a state per capita pay out from the federal government. Equal each persons in each state. Get rid of and close all the loop holes and make taxes really easy. Then raise the base level as your debt goes down.

As each State debt goes down the transfer payments from the Fed to the State is shifted from paying down the state debt and shifted more to the state coffers for investment.

Each State budget comes from the fed transfer payments. Number of persons per state determining the amount and paying down the debt time will vary but the fiscally responsible states will have full positive coffers that can be invested as the state sees fit, or even returned to the populace kind of like Alaska.

California can have lots of debt and lots of people and lots of payment from the Fed to balance a budget and pay off their debt. When paid off they will have lots of people and lots of money.

The USA doesn't need to balance it's budget it need to pay off its debt by bringing in a surplus budget. A Trillion dollars a year. Even then it is going to take 25 years to pay off your debt. Then you will need another 20 years to build up enough capital to ease up on taxes and start living the good life again. A good no more debt life.

Lord Skimper wrote:You have too much debt. Norway could, but you can't afford to.

You need to raise taxes for everyone to 50% and put in a base tax free limit, say $15-25,000.

Then pay down your debt.

Half taxes for business and capital gains dividends and interest and make it a flat 25% with a $30-50,000 base level.

Eliminate all sales taxes and state taxes. And have a state per capita pay out from the federal government. Equal each persons in each state. Get rid of and close all the loop holes and make taxes really easy. Then raise the base level as your debt goes down.

As each State debt goes down the transfer payments from the Fed to the State is shifted from paying down the state debt and shifted more to the state coffers for investment.

Each State budget comes from the fed transfer payments. Number of persons per state determining the amount and paying down the debt time will vary but the fiscally responsible states will have full positive coffers that can be invested as the state sees fit, or even returned to the populace kind of like Alaska.

California can have lots of debt and lots of people and lots of payment from the Fed to balance a budget and pay off their debt. When paid off they will have lots of people and lots of money.

The USA doesn't need to balance it's budget it need to pay off its debt by bringing in a surplus budget. A Trillion dollars a year. Even then it is going to take 25 years to pay off your debt. Then you will need another 20 years to build up enough capital to ease up on taxes and start living the good life again. A good no more debt life.

Ouch!!!
14th amendment
16th amendment
Then we have cost of living factors tthroughout municipalities, much less each state.
Governors' salaries and state officials differ by state.

TN4994 wrote:

Zakharra wrote: Those few rich (several million people) still pay the vast majority of income taxes, especially since 49-50% of the US population doesn't pay -any- income taxes.

You wrote US population. Young couples with children, first time job workers, and the non-working elderly, make up a large share of the population.
Of the working wage earners, without any deductions, making $10,000+ a year, 100% pay federal income taxes.

Let me clarify then; I meant tax payers, ie adults. I'd have thought that was pretty clear, but what I said still stands. Out of the US population that is of age to pay taxes and does, 49-50% of them don't pay -any- income taxes (if you get a tax return, you're basically not paying taxes so saying that the poor and middle class to pay income taxes when they get a tax refund is a null point since they get it all back, and more). either way the wealthy that so many people despise, a few million million/billionaires and such, pay the vast majority of all income taxes. They shoulder the burden that about half the country isn't paying and exceed in tax payments what those who do pay income taxes, pay out. No representation without taxation? How about representation for those who ARE paying taxes yet keep getting called cheap and whatnot? Like them or not, the wealthy are paying far more than anyone else is already. And there are idiots that call for them to pay even more because of envy and they think the wealthy should pay more because they have more to take.

Zakharra wrote:
Let me clarify then; I meant tax payers, ie adults. I'd have thought that was pretty clear, but what I said still stands. Out of the US population that is of age to pay taxes and does, 49-50% of them don't pay -any- income taxes (if you get a tax return, you're basically not paying taxes so saying that the poor and middle class to pay income taxes when they get a tax refund is a null point since they get it all back, and more). either way the wealthy that so many people despise, a few million million/billionaires and such, pay the vast majority of all income taxes. They shoulder the burden that about half the country isn't paying and exceed in tax payments what those who do pay income taxes, pay out. No representation without taxation? How about representation for those who ARE paying taxes yet keep getting called cheap and whatnot? Like them or not, the wealthy are paying far more than anyone else is already. And there are idiots that call for them to pay even more because of envy and they think the wealthy should pay more because they have more to take.

Many people get a refund not because they don't pay any taxes, but because they were making an interest free loan to the government by having too much withheld from their paychecks. Many people do that as a form of savings plan, stupid though it is. I am required to make estimated tax payments throughout the year, and I always try to make sure I will end up owing the government something on 15 April, when the return is due simply I don't wish to be making them any interest free loans.

fallsfromtrees wrote:

Zakharra wrote:
Let me clarify then; I meant tax payers, ie adults. I'd have thought that was pretty clear, but what I said still stands. Out of the US population that is of age to pay taxes and does, 49-50% of them don't pay -any- income taxes (if you get a tax return, you're basically not paying taxes so saying that the poor and middle class to pay income taxes when they get a tax refund is a null point since they get it all back, and more). either way the wealthy that so many people despise, a few million million/billionaires and such, pay the vast majority of all income taxes. They shoulder the burden that about half the country isn't paying and exceed in tax payments what those who do pay income taxes, pay out. No representation without taxation? How about representation for those who ARE paying taxes yet keep getting called cheap and whatnot? Like them or not, the wealthy are paying far more than anyone else is already. And there are idiots that call for them to pay even more because of envy and they think the wealthy should pay more because they have more to take.

Many people get a refund not because they don't pay any taxes, but because they were making an interest free loan to the government by having too much withheld from their paychecks. Many people do that as a form of savings plan, stupid though it is. I am required to make estimated tax payments throughout the year, and I always try to make sure I will end up owing the government something on 15 April, when the return is due simply I don't wish to be making them any interest free loans.

I always got a tax refund, and it was always less than what I prepaid.
Effectively I've averaged 23.5% in federal and state income taxes.
Also I'm against the progressive tax structure.
Zakharra your stats have been shown incorrect by too many sources.
It is estimated that 82% of those making $20,000 or more pay income tax. The rest have child deduction credits, mortgage credit, etc.

Zakharra wrote:
I cannot see this as being anything but overly complicated. A sliding scale on the price of things depending upon profit and resource allotment? That would tend to make things much harder to plan for since you could have the price of almost everything adjusting on a daily basis. Also what about the stockholders? They are the ones the company works for in the end. Would any dividends the stockholders get be counted as a positive resource allotment?

Methinks thou doth complicate matters overly much.
Use the government data to set the tax rate on current prices to optimize tax revenue. Leave the tax rates at that level indefinitely and collect taxes on all retail purchases. How is this complicated?

The complicated part is deciding what the rate is. Once decided, the rate stays the same.

As for dividends, paying them would be evaluated against reinvestment. Dividends would not be taxed at all and flow to the owners of the company paying dividends.

The sales tax is regressive. This can be mitigated by the sales tax exemption cards. Even so, the folks who just make enough not to qualify pay a larger portion of their income on unavoidable expenses than those that are richer. I can see setting a luxury tax on items priced above some to be determined level.

Regressivity at some level is not altogether bad. A larger portion of the population will pay taxes. That means there is a larger part of the population who care about what the pols do with their money.