Why no Crusher the first time?

Dca wrote:Yah, I got that her passage through ATC was as a commander, after the action at Casimir in Let's Dance. I was under the impression that the normal passage was as a middie during the Saganami schooling, That's why I was surprised that she hadn't taken it by the time of Ms. Midshipwoman Harrington. So either the Crusher had historically been only postgraduate, or Honor somehow didn't take it during her regular schooling. My initial post assumed the latter.

No, it's a mid-career course. They have filtered out the incompetent, unmotivated, and those whose strengths lie elsewhere and teach those who are likely to be, in the immediate future, commanding a large combat vessel.

I think the confusion comes about, at least partly, because the Crusher takes place at Saganami Island and Honor ran it while also teaching cadet-level courses there. As has been said, the Crusher is a pre-command course for officers who have already held commissions for some time. The nearest real-world analogue I can think of is the Royal Navy’s ‘Perisher’ for submariners – originally called the Periscope School (hence the name), then the Commanding Officer’s Qualifying Course and now known as the Submarine Command Course, passing the course is required before can command one of Her Majesty’s Submarines.

Dafmeister wrote:I think the confusion comes about, at least partly, because the Crusher takes place at Saganami Island and Honor ran it while also teaching cadet-level courses there. As has been said, the Crusher is a pre-command course for officers who have already held commissions for some time. The nearest real-world analogue I can think of is the Royal Navy’s ‘Perisher’ for submariners – originally called the Periscope School (hence the name), then the Commanding Officer’s Qualifying Course and now known as the Submarine Command Course, passing the course is required before can command one of Her Majesty’s Submarines.

There was also a commanding officer's course mentioned in OBS, taken either at the time she got command of the LAC, or just before she got Hawkwing. ATC is the second-tier course for commanders of warships; commanders who don't qualify for the line units will need the first course for command of dispatch boats, support and repair vessels, and so on.

Also, I was under the impression--maybe false--that just when you get to the Crusher is related to your career track, with tactical officers getting in a bit earlier. Is that wrong?


Rob

Is suspect the Crusher is the CO's course mentioned in OBS, it just didn't have a name when OBS was written.

Armed Neo-Bob wrote:Also, I was under the impression--maybe false--that just when you get to the Crusher is related to your career track, with tactical officers getting in a bit earlier. Is that wrong?


Rob

I don't think it's wrong per se, it's just a function of the tactical track being thought of as the direct route to command in the RMN. In other words, an officer from a different track would have to do a career switch (with all the remedial training that implies) before being selected for ATC, meaning they've had a longer career by the time they become eligible than their Tac counterparts.

Dafmeister wrote:Is suspect the Crusher is the CO's course mentioned in OBS, it just didn't have a name when OBS was written.

We had a discussion about this a couple weeks ago.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6458

Duckk wrote:

Dafmeister wrote:Is suspect the Crusher is the CO's course mentioned in OBS, it just didn't have a name when OBS was written.

We had a discussion about this a couple weeks ago.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6458

This is what happens when I take a week off...

The E wrote:

Armed Neo-Bob wrote:Also, I was under the impression--maybe false--that just when you get to the Crusher is related to your career track, with tactical officers getting in a bit earlier. Is that wrong?


Rob

I don't think it's wrong per se, it's just a function of the tactical track being thought of as the direct route to command in the RMN. In other words, an officer from a different track would have to do a career switch (with all the remedial training that implies) before being selected for ATC, meaning they've had a longer career by the time they become eligible than their Tac counterparts.

Hello, The E. Um, what career switch?

Some examples: Samuel Webster was a communications officer before he had a tactical command (off-screen somewhere); then, and as CPT jg, he got one of the Trojans in Honor's Q-ship squadron. Now he is head of a department at BuWeaps, probably specializing in cybernetics and communication protocols. Where is the career shift?

Hemphill was rotated out to ship command in HoS, and sometime after the Fleet excersize in OBS, she was made CO out at Grendelsbane; "--no career change, just "seasoning".

Uncle Jim Webster was rotated from First Space Lord back to the Fleet in SVW, without regard to who would be best in his slot, because he was due (by tradition) to rotate, and because the shooting hadn't started yet. While the war interrupted that rotation for the senior Space Lords, there is no reason to believe they are going to insulate any of their other officers from gaining either command or administrative experiences.

I think FoD even mentioned that Sir Lucien Cortez had been CO of a battle squadron.

The RMN (so far) seems to expect _all_ of its officers to rotate through command slots (probably with tactically-challenged officers getting the support vessels instead of line vessels).

As I said in the first post, I thought when they actually got to the ATC related to their grade; Tactical Officers who don't get DD command, would go as senior Lt. Commanders as would other officers (before the war, those with influence). Most officers would go as Commanders, or even junior grade Captains. Those with bad officer evals (or, without political patrons) wouldn't go at all, and their careers would stall. Also, it was all-too-possible for someone's career to stall even if they were good people--Lt Cdr McKeon, Lt Brigham, or that sailing master from Hawkwing--all good people, but none of them selected for advancement before they served with Honor.

Pre-war RMN policy seems to be taken straight from the Napoleonic era Royal Navy, with 80 year old Lt Mercedes Brigham and the necessity of having someone else pushing your advancement. Which is how Styles got squadron or warship command; and Santino; and Pavel Young.

And it is possible to make Captain, jg without having a command at all, as both Jaruwalski and Ginger Lewis demonstrate. I just think that, like Hemphill herself, someone is going to decide they need a command experience to get "the shooter's perspective."

I don't think RFC is using our current military personnel practices for of his policies in the RMN; and it is fiction and he does need the friction to provide tension in the story.

Or, of course, I could be a horse's ass. this is way too damn long.

YMMV

Rob

The Advanced Tactical Course is probably offered to very senior LT, LCDR and CMDR who are slated for command of a warship.

Armed Neo-Bob wrote:

Hello, The E. Um, what career switch?

Some examples: Samuel Webster was a communications officer before he had a tactical command (off-screen somewhere); then, and as CPT jg, he got one of the Trojans in Honor's Q-ship squadron. Now he is head of a department at BuWeaps, probably specializing in cybernetics and communication protocols. Where is the career shift?

Hemphill was rotated out to ship command in HoS, and sometime after the Fleet excersize in OBS, she was made CO out at Grendelsbane; "--no career change, just "seasoning".

Uncle Jim Webster was rotated from First Space Lord back to the Fleet in SVW, without regard to who would be best in his slot, because he was due (by tradition) to rotate, and because the shooting hadn't started yet. While the war interrupted that rotation for the senior Space Lords, there is no reason to believe they are going to insulate any of their other officers from gaining either command or administrative experiences.

I think FoD even mentioned that Sir Lucien Cortez had been CO of a battle squadron.

The RMN (so far) seems to expect _all_ of its officers to rotate through command slots (probably with tactically-challenged officers getting the support vessels instead of line vessels).

As I said in the first post, I thought when they actually got to the ATC related to their grade; Tactical Officers who don't get DD command, would go as senior Lt. Commanders as would other officers (before the war, those with influence). Most officers would go as Commanders, or even junior grade Captains. Those with bad officer evals (or, without political patrons) wouldn't go at all, and their careers would stall. Also, it was all-too-possible for someone's career to stall even if they were good people--Lt Cdr McKeon, Lt Brigham, or that sailing master from Hawkwing--all good people, but none of them selected for advancement before they served with Honor.

Pre-war RMN policy seems to be taken straight from the Napoleonic era Royal Navy, with 80 year old Lt Mercedes Brigham and the necessity of having someone else pushing your advancement. Which is how Styles got squadron or warship command; and Santino; and Pavel Young.

And it is possible to make Captain, jg without having a command at all, as both Jaruwalski and Ginger Lewis demonstrate. I just think that, like Hemphill herself, someone is going to decide they need a command experience to get "the shooter's perspective."

I don't think RFC is using our current military personnel practices for of his policies in the RMN; and it is fiction and he does need the friction to provide tension in the story.

Or, of course, I could be a horse's ass. this is way too damn long.

YMMV

Rob

Hi Rob,

I don't think that anyone intends to imply that the command route is set in stone, but it does seem to be true that the usual route is through the tactical track.

Don