first book: early plot question(s)

IIRC there is at least one atheist in the Inner Circle.

The head of Charisian Intelligence became one after Learning The Truth.

Of course, he isn't a "nasty" atheist.

Incognitia wrote:

mattig89ch wrote:Hidy ho all,

Quick question. I picked this book up off audible. And was rather enjoying it. I think I'm 6 chapters in or so. And I'm getting the feeling more and more, that this book is very anti-religion.

now, I have nothing to argue about that point. People are allowed to believe as they like. But I'm a god faring man.

But then, I've been known to see shadows on a clear day.

I'm curious if anyone else got this impression? Or am I seeing shadows where there are none?

Definitely seeing shadows. Go on through the series to the seventh book and you still won't have met an atheist character, or one who does more than wrestle uncomfortably with his faith for more than a few weeks before settling in to be a good little theistic believer again.
It's very much my main plausibility beef with the series. The Mad Wizard has a very deft touch in so many ways, but he doesn't seem to want to have any characters who don't believe, however unlikely that is.

DrakBibliophile wrote:IIRC there is at least one atheist in the Inner Circle.

The head of Charisian Intelligence became one after Learning The Truth.

Of course, he isn't a "nasty" atheist.

Incognitia wrote:

Ohhh, Nahrmahn did de-convert, didn't he? I forgot about that, I guess because - even virtualised as he is - he's dead and doesn't show up that much.
I'm mostly disappointed that Paityr teetered on the edge and didn't go over, I think that it would have been really interesting to have a senior cleric and new member of the Inner Circle with that viewpoint. Damn Michael Staynair and his superpowers.

Incognitia wrote:Ohhh, Nahrmahn did de-convert, didn't he? I forgot about that, I guess because - even virtualised as he is - he's dead and doesn't show up that much.
I'm mostly disappointed that Paityr teetered on the edge and didn't go over, I think that it would have been really interesting to have a senior cleric and new member of the Inner Circle with that viewpoint. Damn Michael Staynair and his superpowers.

Not Narhmahn. The current head of Charisian Intelligence.

At the point where that dicussion comes up, it's a bit of a strtech to say that Wave Thunder is an atheist. However, he is wondering that sinse one religion is a fraud, all religions might be a fraud. So its fair to say that at that point he is struggling with his disillusionment.

Don

SWM wrote:

Incognitia wrote:Ohhh, Nahrmahn did de-convert, didn't he? I forgot about that, I guess because - even virtualised as he is - he's dead and doesn't show up that much.
I'm mostly disappointed that Paityr teetered on the edge and didn't go over, I think that it would have been really interesting to have a senior cleric and new member of the Inner Circle with that viewpoint. Damn Michael Staynair and his superpowers.

Not Narhmahn. The current head of Charisian Intelligence.

Given Nahrmahn's current state and plans when Olyvia passes away, he seems peculiarly willing to believe in souls and an afterlife still.

I think a lot of the Inner Circle characters, insofar as they are up to that psychological feat, are taking their cue from Staynair and living and acting as best they can, so that if there's nothing more than this life or if there is one in which good-living gets rewarded, they've done the best they can do with all they've had - and that there is that just reward and a Just Rewarder has more the shape of a hope than a conviction of fact.

It makes my head hurt trying to imagine people thinking and feeling that way, but for my part, asking people who are doing their best also to have an orientation to the big questions I can wrap my head around is so far down my wish list I'm not going to track it.

JeffEngel wrote:

Incognitia wrote:Ohhh, Nahrmahn did de-convert, didn't he? I forgot about that, I guess because - even virtualised as he is - he's dead and doesn't show up that much.
I'm mostly disappointed that Paityr teetered on the edge and didn't go over, I think that it would have been really interesting to have a senior cleric and new member of the Inner Circle with that viewpoint. Damn Michael Staynair and his superpowers.

SWM wrote:Not Narhmahn. The current head of Charisian Intelligence.

Given Nahrmahn's current state and plans when Olyvia passes away, he seems peculiarly willing to believe in souls and an afterlife still.

I think a lot of the Inner Circle characters, insofar as they are up to that psychological feat, are taking their cue from Staynair and living and acting as best they can, so that if there's nothing more than this life or if there is one in which good-living gets rewarded, they've done the best they can do with all they've had - and that there is that just reward and a Just Rewarder has more the shape of a hope than a conviction of fact.

It makes my head hurt trying to imagine people thinking and feeling that way, but for my part, asking people who are doing their best also to have an orientation to the big questions I can wrap my head around is so far down my wish list I'm not going to track it.

Wave Thunder is the head of Charisian Intelligence.
And I seem to recall that Dr Maklin (sp)of the research institute was tending towards being an agnostic, but refused to tell anyone since he didn't need to hand the G04 that kind of ammunition.

And I seem to recall that Dr Maklin (sp)of the research institute was tending towards being an agnostic, but refused to tell anyone since he didn't need to hand the G04 that kind of ammunition.

Dr. Maklin's tending toward deism - belief in a creator deity who sets up the natural world to work according to natural laws and then lets is roll without further intervention.

So there's at least deism there, a sort of uncertain atheism in Wave Thunder, Staynair's peculiar hopeful faith, and many others' "I'm going with Staynair on this one" position. And everyone's keeping it under their hat, since anything but utterly confident, assured theism would mean questioning the Writ and that's not something to do in public yet.

It's worth noting that the god that the safehold church follows is no more christian as it is muslim or jewish or any other monotheistic religion. As an atheist the world that Merlin has found themselves in terrifies me, because no matter how well Merlin does his job or how extensive OWL's database is on old earth there will be people that continue to believe in the Writ and the religion that Langhorne help put in motion. We have a hard enough time getting people to separate myth from history or parable from commandment in our real day to day reality. It's hard for me to imagine future safehold that doesn't pay moderate lip service to the Writ for a long long long time. For me beliefs that are not based on evidence opens the door to all kinds of whoo and like the proscriptions puts up roadblocks to advancement.

Madeye_Malk wrote:It's worth noting that the god that the safehold church follows is no more christian as it is muslim or jewish or any other monotheistic religion. As an atheist the world that Merlin has found themselves in terrifies me, because no matter how well Merlin does his job or how extensive OWL's database is on old earth there will be people that continue to believe in the Writ and the religion that Langhorne help put in motion. We have a hard enough time getting people to separate myth from history or parable from commandment in our real day to day reality. It's hard for me to imagine future safehold that doesn't pay moderate lip service to the Writ for a long long long time. For me beliefs that are not based on evidence opens the door to all kinds of whoo and like the proscriptions puts up roadblocks to advancement.

Agreed. On the other hands -

The Writ's got good stuff. The creation myth is total BS, and the "explanation" for most of the facts in it is near-total BS. If you don't attend to sanitation the way Pasquale directs, you won't get cursed but you surely will rack up the diseases. Hastings did provide an awesome map. Even Bedard's got a fine course on mental health. So as things to follow go, well, as far as all that goes, Safehold's got better religion than we do by far.

But with OWL's records and those of the Brotherhood and SSK, its holy history is going to face disconfirmation a lot stronger and more direct than anything Earth's religions have faced. It's going to be hard for people to disregard that entirely, especially when there will be an established church and state taking that disproof as a given.

There will be people who stick with some form of the Church of God Awaiting and some form of the Writ, I'm sure. But apart from some lunatic fringe, I'd bet most of them will be following it without quite taking all its claims seriously - rather many nominal Judeo-Christian believers in the first world today. It's not an epistemic attitude that impresses me favorably either, but people like that can still be perfectly safe neighbors and fellow citizens.

JeffEngel wrote:But with OWL's records and those of the Brotherhood and SSK, its holy history is going to face disconfirmation a lot stronger and more direct than anything Earth's religions have faced. It's going to be hard for people to disregard that entirely, especially when there will be an established church and state taking that disproof as a given.

There will be people who stick with some form of the Church of God Awaiting and some form of the Writ, I'm sure. But apart from some lunatic fringe, I'd bet most of them will be following it without quite taking all its claims seriously - rather many nominal Judeo-Christian believers in the first world today.

Rather many, yes, but you may be underestimating the size of any likely lunatic fringe.

I refer you to modern day Creationism, which has been as absolutely refuted by mountains of hard physical evidence as any idea in history. Last time I checked half the population of the US still believes it anyway, based on their interpretation of a single holy text.

Now imagine what such people could manage to rationalize away by referring to the libraries full of testimony from all the Adams and Eves and refusing to believe the explanation for why they believed what they did about how they got here. Technology? Shan-wei's demonic influence obviously. The entire Terran federation history? A vile fiction designed to mislead the faithful from God's chosen path for them!

(I have personal experience with this, having on multiple occasions encountered people who told me, in all seriousness, that every scientist in the world who supported evolutionary theory was, literally, part of a Satanic plot... which also planted of faked all of the evidence supporting said theory)


No amount of dis-confirming data is sufficient once a person has got it into their head that any data that contradicts their beliefs is nothing but a test of their faith, since the act of rejecting that data then becomes a proof of their faithfulness. The harder the data seems to be, the greater is the faith required to reject it, so rejecting it is made into even more virtuous an act!