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Get rid of the Income tax?

For anyone who might want to have a side conversation...you're welcome here!

Would you scrap all Welfare payments AND Income tax?

Yes
5
25%
No
10
50%
Reduce Both
5
25%
 
Total votes : 20
Re: Get rid of the Income tax?
Post by Invictus   » Thu Dec 04, 2014 10:16 am

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The E wrote:
Invictus wrote:I completely agree. I just don't trust government to act in the best interests of anyone but themselves.


But you do trust corporations, which are compelled to act as self-servingly as possible at all times, to serve you better?


I trust myself to opt out of a corporate package that is screwing me. I don't get that option with Superannuation. A company that doesn't get special treatment and alienates its customers doesn't tend to stay in business.

"When you talk about damage radius, even atomic weapons pale before that of an unfettered idiot in a position of power." Sam Starfall
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Re: Get rid of the Income tax?
Post by cthia   » Thu Dec 04, 2014 10:18 am

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No. It'll overrun the damn in other, even unforeseen, areas. Not to mention that it lacks humanity and compassion.

But, if the question was, should we Americans eliminate property tax? What is it, that you can never really completely pay for something? What the effing hockey stix! Some states have a 0.2% property tax on up to near 2%. What's with the difference?

Some American states have no income tax at the state level.
http://abcnews.go.com/Business/states-i ... d=21490926

And why does my money, have to pay for making money?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Get rid of the Income tax?
Post by PeterZ   » Thu Dec 04, 2014 11:05 am

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Yes. A sales tax on retail purchases that exclude purchases of food, clothing and shelter below a certain level would align incentives for government and the private sector. The more economic activity, the more revenue flows to government. Those in poverty can apply for tax exemption cards. I would recommend that those receiving welfare cannot get exemption cards. The public pays for what welfare recipient purchase anyway so welfare payments can be set with sales taxes in mind. I agree with T2M that Welfare is better reduced than eliminated. Such programs are better maintained at a local level, but that's a different argument for another thread.

Those working poor that don't receive public assistance should be the only ones eligible for those tax exemption cards. There should be incentives to be self sufficient even at that basic level.

This way earnings, savings and property are not taxed. Those things allow the individual to support him/herself and should be encouraged. Spending money fuels the activity that uses common resources like roads, bridges and energy and so should be taxed to support the maintenance of the infrastructure for those resources.

Taxes on corporations will be passed on to the consumer in the end. By not taxing corporations' activities, those corporations and businesses can produce more goods for a given amount of revenue. That means more jobs and more people who can purchase goods that are taxed. At some level such a sales tax is revenue neutral with the current income tax. Odds are a sales tax can be set to increase revenue generated for government. Price elasticity models suggest this is likely.
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Re: Get rid of the Income tax?
Post by Zakharra   » Thu Dec 04, 2014 11:52 am

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I can tolerate some form of income tax, but nowhere near the levels some people want (50-60-70-80-90% of income for the wealthier people? WTF? No. All of the taxes added together should -never- hit or go over 50%. If a government is taking half or more of your income, then the government is doing something seriously wrong. Like spending too much on frivolous crap like pork projects.

Cutting government welfare just places more strain on the middle class, who provide most of the non government welfare. Unfare strain since the rich typically don't do diddly squat to help the poor, it will actually cost the middle class more than they gain.


In the US, it would not. The wealthy (a despised class by many liberals/Democrats here) pay -FAR- more of the income tax burden than the middle class. Something like 10% of the wealthiest people in the US pay 80% of all income taxes. And that is around a 30% rate (+/- 10% depending on states and exemptions). Yet those who have less almost always seem to want the wealthy taxed at an insanely high rate.

Let me inform you of something, the idea that the wealthy don't do diddly for the poor but the middle class does, seems to be missing something. Everyone is selfish to one degree or another. The poor, the middle class and the wealthy. Many wealthy give a lot of money to help the poor, as does the middle class.And if some wealthy don't, so to do some middle class not help the poor. Not helping the poor is not something limited to the wealthy by any means. And the middle class can be just as greedy and desiring of wealth as the wealthy are. All of these attempts (not necessarily by you, but by the general audience) to make the wealthy pay more because they have more to be taken, comes off as being more of a desire to punish thew wealthy because they, unlike the average person, has succeeded at life.

Now corporate welfare; yeah, cut most of that out. The large corporations do not need any form of corporate welfare or tax money being given to them.
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Re: Get rid of the Income tax?
Post by Invictus   » Thu Dec 04, 2014 12:19 pm

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I think we have different meanings for "Middle Class". When I use it, I'm using the old meaning, as in "earning enough to comfortably provide for their own family's welfare, as well as some luxuries, without assistance." Middle class welfare always sounded like an oxymoron to me.

"When you talk about damage radius, even atomic weapons pale before that of an unfettered idiot in a position of power." Sam Starfall
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Re: Get rid of the Income tax?
Post by Zakharra   » Thu Dec 04, 2014 1:14 pm

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Invictus wrote:I think we have different meanings for "Middle Class". When I use it, I'm using the old meaning, as in "earning enough to comfortably provide for their own family's welfare, as well as some luxuries, without assistance." Middle class welfare always sounded like an oxymoron to me.



That definition works for me. Likely up to about $80,000 per household (varying depending on some more expensive locations like New York city and San Fransisco and such were a $100,000 income means you might get a barely decent place to live.)
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Re: Get rid of the Income tax?
Post by TN4994   » Thu Dec 04, 2014 2:08 pm

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Invictus wrote:I'm not saying it's an instant thing. there would have to be a transition period. But as for rising unemployment, a business can only hire as many people as it can afford. If everyone gets and average 30% increase in their income, how much more do you think they'd spend? If people can spend more, then businesses earn more. Businesses earn more, they expand to cope with demand. Taxation is what really drives unemployment. Did you know, for instance, that a business in Australia, in addition to having to contribute to super, also has to pay a Payroll Tax of 10% of what they are paying their employee's?

Is that similar to the witholding tax (not the SocSec deduction) in the US?
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Re: Get rid of the Income tax?
Post by TN4994   » Thu Dec 04, 2014 2:19 pm

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cthia wrote:No. It'll overrun the damn in other, even unforeseen, areas. Not to mention that it lacks humanity and compassion.

But, if the question was, should we Americans eliminate property tax? What is it, that you can never really completely pay for something? What the effing hockey stix! Some states have a 0.2% property tax on up to near 2%. What's with the difference?

Some American states have no income tax at the state level.
http://abcnews.go.com/Business/states-i ... d=21490926

And why does my money, have to pay for making money?

Every state takes in funds differently. Then funds from certain inputs go to designated outputs.
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Re: Get rid of the Income tax?
Post by TN4994   » Thu Dec 04, 2014 3:14 pm

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Location: Apache County Arizona

In Us.
I would raise the cutoff to $40000 Federal. Reason - Annual cost to keep a single prisoner.
Do away with sales tax on basic items like food, clothing, and heating.
Luxury tax keep.
Property tax is state and county nightmare. Welfare people in HUD housing projects don't pay tax, so we should look at that as a baseline.
Do away with corporate tax.
Income tax flat 10% for anything over the $40,000 baseline.
No deductions.
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Five Miles To The Right ... Of Attila The Hun ...
Post by HB of CJ   » Thu Dec 04, 2014 8:27 pm

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Not sure if I am Libertarian or perhaps just an anarchist. Government is the problem, not the solution. Just try to read the US Constitution. Then read the 10th amendment. Pretty straight forward.

About 90% of what the USA Federal government does is not legal. The income tax amendment was never ratified, thus illegal. Our country is no longer a nation of law, but a nation of mob rule.

Too many non deserving non august non intelligent welfare types vote and they vote for their own $self interest$. Even Thomas Jefferson said that if this happens, the nation is doomed. Smart guy.

But ... in spite of all the problems, our nation, the USA, is in my opinion the best place to be right now. Many close second place finishers. Too many people vote. But ... that is the way it is.

The USA high water mark was just before WW1. My opinion only. Since then we have been on a long slippery slope down to oblivion. But ... over 220 years in the sun is a very long time indeed.

HB of CJ (old coot) Cm. I love this Forum. That aught to fetch them out! :)
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