Space Stations, Forts and Strategies

SWM wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:They aren't (currently) sending CLACs and Cruiser / Battle Cruiser squadrons. Because while those are more survivable, they're also less expendable than DDs - so if they run into a overwhelming force you can more easily afford to lose the DDs than the BCs.

True, but David himself hinted that that they might send out CLACs with destroyer squadrons in the future, in http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/en ... gton/289/1:

I suspect that it's a reasonable response to conventional threats as currently conducted. But it's going to be more than they can afford to deploy against a greater number of sensor contacts down at weaker thresholds, or against attackers that are willing to generate weak contacts in large numbers in succession. You pop up at just above their threshold to notice - you leave, you pop back up elsewhere that far out or so, repeat, and give the weary reaction forces more than they can keep looking at while your actual attacks go in somewhere else, or from further out, or otherwise with a bit less detectability.

If detection isn't improved against spider drive units, there's going to have to be more work paid to checking out meager sensor contacts faster and with more sensor platforms. That will demand either more investment or skimping on the combat capability of those first-line contact reaction forces.

I'd really peg the most reasonable response as an automated destroyer-range recon drone bus with a hypergenerator, but I think that level of automation is not something RFC is going to introduce. (I can understand the narrative reasons; I don't know that there's a plausible in-universe explanation why not.)

I didn't go back to look but when the Sharks were dropped off near the Manticore system, several DDs were sent to check out the footprint. That should have been enough to find normal ships who were working under stealth conditions and coasting on a ballistic path or even at a very low-level impeller strength to change directions.
But they were dealing with Spider Drive and the Sharks were (along with being well stealthed) running from the drop point with a drive that the DDs could not pick up on thier sensors.
They have to solve the problem of detecting Spider Drive or get very lucky

First, congratulations to Cthia on his rapid and well-deserved promotion to Fleet Admiral.

Second, shells of interlaced nonoverlapping wedges, with plenty of space between the ships placed so there is no line of sight in to the target, would in principle work. It might cost a bit.

I didn't say it was a good idea, but for your one of a kind wormhole generator it might or might not be worth it.

cthia wrote:Wherever we turn in missile warfare, we're faced with the possibility of a ballistic component of a missile attack, coming in at .99c end run.

There has to be something we can do. Can we simulate Bolthole? Can we think outside the box, or will any such attempt surely tank? Shall we try? Any ideas? I'll give it a go.

We have Apollo. We have FTL capability. We have radar capability. We have super computer capability.

Can we manufacture a platform and seed them in a 360 degree shell about a space station, at optimum distances from station and each other, designed for activatation during ballistic attacks? Radar returns from ballistic objects will be picked up by platforms and then FTL'd back to station defenses, updated in real-time and anti-missile fire can be plotted. Why does this not work? The radar return to platform would be limited to light speed, but FTL from platforms to space station. Why will this not work?

Radar 101: Wiki
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radar

phillies wrote:
First, congratulations to Cthia on his rapid and well-deserved promotion to Fleet Admiral.

Second, shells of interlaced nonoverlapping wedges, with plenty of space between the ships placed so there is no line of sight in to the target, would in principle work. It might cost a bit.

I didn't say it was a good idea, but for your one of a kind wormhole generator it might or might not be worth it.

cthia wrote:
Wherever we turn in missile warfare, we're faced with the possibility of a ballistic component of a missile attack, coming in at .99c end run.

There has to be something we can do. Can we simulate Bolthole? Can we think outside the box, or will any such attempt surely tank? Shall we try? Any ideas? I'll give it a go.

We have Apollo. We have FTL capability. We have radar capability. We have super computer capability.

Can we manufacture a platform and seed them in a 360 degree shell about a space station, at optimum distances from station and each other, designed for activatation during ballistic attacks? Radar returns from ballistic objects will be picked up by platforms and then FTL'd back to station defenses, updated in real-time and anti-missile fire can be plotted. Why does this not work? The radar return to platform would be limited to light speed, but FTL from platforms to space station. Why will this not work?

Radar 101: Wiki
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radar

Thanks phillies, as always, for your warm welcome and decency. And for making me privy to the promotion sitting in my inbox. I missed noticing it, again. Thanks. Will this new promotion serve to gain admittance to Bolthole?

I must thank all who responded. It has been very interesting reading. And especially to he who worked out the numbers as to how many of these platforms would be needed. My initial thoughts were twice your lowest estimate.

I am aware of the immensity of space, believe me, after this ordeal, in a most profound way. viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5101&p=125323&hilit=romanian#p125323

However, I was thinking more of using the immensity of space against itself, as a possible solution to the problem. The entire volume of space within your home system need not be seeded. I imagine mobile platforms, as mobile as *Apollo, or moreso because of a lack of a need to be stealthy.

And since there is no need to be stealthy, these platforms can be much bigger than the Apollo systems, marrying several fission plants to produce the needed power in detecting objects so small.

And this maximum power load-out would only be necessary for an unprolonged time. Battles tend to be over quickly.

I am imagining quick response crews - with the foresight and intuition of Abigail to "search this volume of space right here."

After all, barring the MALign and their creepy spiders, incoming hypers are indeed detected. It seems that the probable cone of attack vectors can be plotted from one's hyper footprint.

I don't rightly agree with the assessment of waste. I refer you to Honor's own sentiment, regarding waste, aboard Fearless and her shameless use of ship's resources.

Hephaestus civilians represent the most knowledgable carbon based units in the 'Verse. Some projects may have been forever lost when Hephaestus was destroyed. The next best thing since Apollo itself could have been on the drawing board. That is waste. Besides, Manticore is wormhole rich! You have to spend the credits to make credits, and your irreplaceable, genius and child prodigy resources are not expendable. I can't help from wondering how much tech was forever lost with Hephaestus. If Haven would have destroyed Hephaestus at the proper time, then any Havenite restaurant's favorite delicacy would be Salamander on Toast, right about now.

I wanted to play in this thread more, but the exigencies of my service to my company, family and fiancé has other ideas. My apologies.

Thanks for all replies.

An aside:
* At the risk of reprimand, RFC said he is not in favor of automated ships without crews, but hasn't Apollo become just that when weapons was placed aboard it, just without a wedge?

cthia wrote:An aside:
* At the risk of reprimand, RFC said he is not in favor of automated ships without crews, but hasn't Apollo become just that when weapons was placed aboard it, just without a wedge?

I'm not sure what you are saying here. Apollo command missiles have a wedge, and do not have weapons, and are not truly automated.

SWM wrote:

cthia wrote:
An aside:
* At the risk of reprimand, RFC said he is not in favor of automated ships without crews, but hasn't Apollo become just that when weapons was placed aboard it, just without a wedge?

I'm not sure what you are saying here. Apollo command missiles have a wedge, and do not have weapons, and are not truly automated.

Doh! Sorry SWM, I should stop posting when on a time budget.

I was referring to Mistletoe, the drone armed to destroy Moriarty. Seems a step toward automated ship warfare to me.

(Ducks a bevy of a barrage of UFO's but having a fiancé has made my catlike instincts and survival skills sharp.)

cthia wrote:Doh! Sorry SWM, I should stop posting when on a time budget.

I was referring to Mistletoe, the drone armed to destroy Moriarty. Seems a step toward automated ship warfare to me.

(Ducks a bevy of a barrage of UFO's but having a fiancé has made my catlike instincts and survival skills sharp.)

Maybe I misread the text, but Mistletoe didn't strike me as any more automated than a standard shipkiller. The difference was that, by using a drone's propulsion system rather than a missile's, they traded raw acceleration for endurance and stealth.

cthia wrote:I was referring to Mistletoe, the drone armed to destroy Moriarty. Seems a step toward automated ship warfare to me.)

It's a step. Then again, plenty of things can be destroyed just with a wedge even, and anything with a guidance system and a wedge represents a step toward automated warfare. I give you the humble counter-missile.

I think the next steps are automated units that deploy other units, and an automated unit with a hypergenerator. The first of those is dinky. The second is a lot larger, but it'd be the major one for really good remote detection duty along a system's periphery.

JeffEngel wrote:

cthia wrote:I was referring to Mistletoe, the drone armed to destroy Moriarty. Seems a step toward automated ship warfare to me.)

It's a step. Then again, plenty of things can be destroyed just with a wedge even, and anything with a guidance system and a wedge represents a step toward automated warfare. I give you the humble counter-missile.

I think the next steps are automated units that deploy other units, and an automated unit with a hypergenerator. The first of those is dinky. The second is a lot larger, but it'd be the major one for really good remote detection duty along a system's periphery.

That would be a logical progression, but it is almost certainly not going to happen in the Honorverse. While David has moved slightly in the direction of more automation, I'm confident that he will resist that level of automation.

cthia wrote:I was referring to Mistletoe, the drone armed to destroy Moriarty. Seems a step toward automated ship warfare to me.)

JeffEngel wrote:It's a step. Then again, plenty of things can be destroyed just with a wedge even, and anything with a guidance system and a wedge represents a step toward automated warfare. I give you the humble counter-missile.

I think the next steps are automated units that deploy other units, and an automated unit with a hypergenerator. The first of those is dinky. The second is a lot larger, but it'd be the major one for really good remote detection duty along a system's periphery.

SWM wrote:That would be a logical progression, but it is almost certainly not going to happen in the Honorverse. While David has moved slightly in the direction of more automation, I'm confident that he will resist that level of automation.

So am I. It's an idea that's simply too powerful - completely automated and "sentient" ships would change the nature of the story completely. Therefore it isn't going to happen.

However, consider the Brixton Comet, the ship Anton and Yana took to Mesa. That's a civilian ship that's automated to where it only needs two people.