Question: Battle of The Selker Rift

I've just finished reading the as-always-thrilling account of the Battle of the Selker Rift (HH6). A lot of the dramatic tension in the latter parts of this battle revolves around the ultimately unsuccessful efforts of Commander Harold Tschu to repair and open a set of heavily damaged cargo bay doors so that Wayfarer can unship her missle pods and launch a devastating salvo of missles against Stephen Holtz' Achmed. Tschu and his team will need at least 90 minutes, and that's just not enough time...

My question is this: Why repair the doors at all? Why don't Wayfarer's marines just affix some shaped charges to the damaged doors and blow them clean off? It worked like a charm for the Seals in the film Zero Dark Thirty, and it would take at most a few minutes.

One, OperaJoeGreen (and a most interesting moniker, that!), welcome to the Forum, pick up an Old Tillman at the bar and make yourself comfortable (beware of kzt, but he really is a nice guy and doesn't bite...well, much...

Second: I am of the opinion that Duckk is the sole human being that has memorized every single entry in the fifth imperium database, so he knows all--but is glad to share.

Third: If you haven't read the fifth imperium stuff, yet, visit the home site for the Honorverse http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/series/Harrington/ and prepare to be busy for about a day or so--lots and lots of good info there.

Duckk wrote:http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/entry/Harrington/98/1

Hey Duckk,

this is something that almost had to be discussed at the conventions or at BuNine; or maybe it's in the Pearls, and I don't remember it. But. . .

I never understood why Wayfarer didn't just start launching a large bunch of missiles out of her 10 broadside tubes. Manticore is one of the only Navies which does not lock the missiles into a full- or half- acceleration mode; she could have launched 4 or 5 salvos on a time-delay for a simultaneous attack. She could never match the Sultan's sustained rate, but her missiles were SD missiles; wouldn't that have punched out the BC?

Especially with the BC approaching for an energy duel. A sort of Henke-style surprise.

Just wondering,

Rob

The point was to draw out the chase as long as possible, in order to 1) get farther away from Artemis' drop off point, and 2) give the damage control teams as much time as possible to get the pod rails up. Opening up for a broadside engagement does not serve either of those goals.

Remember, Achmed didn't go barreling in for an energy engagement until they IDed the decoy. They started with a probing missile duel to see if the Q-ship still had pods. Opening up the broadsides would have confirmed that Wayfarer had been crippled by Kerebin in the previous engagement. Honor needed to keep the BC guessing, because Wayfarer could not win a broadside missile engagement at Achmed's optimal range. With a maximum range duel with just the chasers, Honor was gambling that she could keep going long enough to get the pod rails back up, plus she could keep the Peeps from getting a look at her Artemis decoy. And it very nearly worked.

Duckk wrote:The point was to draw out the chase as long as possible, in order to 1) get farther away from Artemis' drop off point, and 2) give the damage control teams as much time as possible to get the pod rails up. Opening up for a broadside engagement does not serve either of those goals.

Remember, Achmed didn't go barreling in for an energy engagement until they IDed the decoy. They started with a probing missile duel to see if the Q-ship still had pods. Opening up the broadsides would have confirmed that Wayfarer had been crippled by Kerebin in the previous engagement. Honor needed to keep the BC guessing, because Wayfarer could not win a broadside missile engagement at Achmed's optimal range. With a maximum range duel with just the chasers, Honor was gambling that she could keep going long enough to get the pod rails back up, plus she could keep the Peeps from getting a look at her Artemis decoy. And it very nearly worked.

I didn't remember Honor engaging with the chasers at all. I must need to re-read the book.

My intent was to time the launch of the tube missiles for the time after Achmed went full bore, and not initiating their wedges until the ship was pretty close to energy range. By that time, it was almost too late for the pod-rails, but not (quite) too late for few missiles. And, by that time, the Peeps wouldn't have been expecting them.

Thanks! I need to dig out the book again, anyway. Caslet is one of my favorites.

Rob

Armed Neo-Bob wrote:I didn't remember Honor engaging with the chasers at all. I must need to re-read the book.

Honor wasn't. Achmed was lobbing missiles and Wayfarer was eating them.

My intent was to time the launch of the tube missiles for the time after Achmed went full bore, and not initiating their wedges until the ship was pretty close to energy range. By that time, it was almost too late for the pod-rails, but not (quite) too late for few missiles. And, by that time, the Peeps wouldn't have been expecting them.

Wayfarer had the wedge pointed at Achmed, so there was no way to get targeting info. With just blind fire, there's no way to guarantee taking out the BC.

Additionally:

Under normal conditions, he would have turned to open his broadside, but these weren't normal conditions. He had his own EW systems fully on-line, and the same conditions which hurt his fire control had to be hurting the Q-ship's, as well. Under the circumstances, it actually made sense to keep the vulnerable throat of his wedge towards the enemy, for it gave the Manty a weaker, fuzzier target than his sidewalls and the full length of his wedge would have.

All of which means a missile engagement would be pretty pointless for Honor. A decisive short range battle - especially with the SD grasers the Peeps couldn't have known she had - had the highest probability of accomplishing her goals.

Duckk wrote:The point was to draw out the chase as long as possible, in order to 1) get farther away from Artemis' drop off point, and 2) give the damage control teams as much time as possible to get the pod rails up. Opening up for a broadside engagement does not serve either of those goals.

Remember, Achmed didn't go barreling in for an energy engagement until they IDed the decoy. They started with a probing missile duel to see if the Q-ship still had pods. Opening up the broadsides would have confirmed that Wayfarer had been crippled by Kerebin in the previous engagement. Honor needed to keep the BC guessing, because Wayfarer could not win a broadside missile engagement at Achmed's optimal range. With a maximum range duel with just the chasers, Honor was gambling that she could keep going long enough to get the pod rails back up, plus she could keep the Peeps from getting a look at her Artemis decoy. And it very nearly worked.

Hi Duckk,

I've wondered about OperaJoeGreen's question myself, although not quite enough to fish out the answer. Thanks for the link and the very cogent explanation.

And yes, Joe, welcome to the forums. I hope you enjoy the rough and tumble up here. Most of us are pretty good natured most of the time. And the knowledge base of some of these guys is phenomenal.

Don

Duckk wrote:
Honor wasn't. Achmed was lobbing missiles and Wayfarer was eating them.

SNIP

Wayfarer had the wedge pointed at the Achmed, so there was no way to get targeting info. With just blind fire, there's no way to guarantee taking out the BC.

Snip again

All of which means a missile engagement would be pretty pointless for Honor. A decisive short range battle - especially with the SD grasers the Peeps couldn't have known she had - had the highest probability of accomplishing her goals.

Thanks, duckk. I was thinking in terms of Achmed's outright destruction, but since the conditions in the Rift aren't good for sensors, she couldn't guarantee it. That was why she dumped so many pods against the first Sultan, now that I stop and think about it more.

Rob

Duckk wrote:The point was to draw out the chase as long as possible, in order to 1) get farther away from Artemis' drop off point, and 2) give the damage control teams as much time as possible to get the pod rails up. Opening up for a broadside engagement does not serve either of those goals.

Remember, Achmed didn't go barreling in for an energy engagement until they IDed the decoy. They started with a probing missile duel to see if the Q-ship still had pods. Opening up the broadsides would have confirmed that Wayfarer had been crippled by Kerebin in the previous engagement. Honor needed to keep the BC guessing, because Wayfarer could not win a broadside missile engagement at Achmed's optimal range. With a maximum range duel with just the chasers, Honor was gambling that she could keep going long enough to get the pod rails back up, plus she could keep the Peeps from getting a look at her Artemis decoy. And it very nearly worked.

And at the time of Honor Among Enemies, the RMN had not yet developed off-bore firing control capability for its missiles. Wayfarer would have had to turn one of its broadsides to face Achmed for fire control if Honor had wanted to engage with the missile tubes.