Question about Beowulf tactics

Brigade XO wrote:I went back into ART and Beowulf is proceeding with the installation of Mycroft. The problem was that they needed a couple of more months before it was going to be ready- or more- to be up and running.

It was mentioned that not only was it not a visable deterrent, but that they were apparently not going to be able to bring it on-line till it was compleat. The first part of that I can understand: you have highly stealthed control unit (the Keyhole 2) platforms as well as stealthed pods. With the range of the Manticore tech missiles and FTL tactical control you won't need either the control units nor pods in the acceptable traffic lanes in the system.
Not sure why they can't bring it up in sections as the Keyhole 2 units (and power supplies) are positioned along with the pods under their close control. Even a couple of units and a thousand pods are going to be able to give reach "across" the entire system with MDM missiles so IF the SLN shows up before the full system in in place, there will be an awful lot of MDMs available to stiffen BSDF defense. That is even if your pods are a long way beyond "normal" SLN powered flight ranges.

Part of this is when you/they expect the SLN to intervene with the vote process/results/

If the SLN puts a fleet into the Beowulf system before the vote, that is just as much Political influencing and Military intimidation tactics that would be called against Manticore. So, if said fleet shows up, the BSDF tells them to get the hell out of their sovereign system space and THEN uses that nice FTL to call for SEM/ROH fleets to come help.

If SLN put a fleet outside the territorial limit and holds there, waiting for the vote to be announced and then goes running in, it will have given BSDF a chance to turn the probable tactical path into a death trap. Even if SLN sends a force in multiple sections which hang in hyperspace around the system and then come in on message, I would think that the ship traffic (DDs and/or DBs) would give some indication.
Why not arrange for Haven to effectivly do the same thing and -with SEM DBs on the edge of the Beowulf system combined with Hermes Bouys- bring ROHN in as well. Haven should have both a much higher speed capablity (both actual and compensators) and seriously longer weapons reach so the SLN force(s) would find themselves trapped between BSDF and ROHN.
Could work.

Whether the Beowulf secession vote goes through or not, the Mandarins and the SLN/SL are going to punish Beowulf for daring to even -think- about seceding. The SL plan is, as I remember it, to have the SLN go in about the time of the vote, or before it, use the SLN to forcibly make the Beowulfians capitulate, then install a SL puppet government and then have the vote under 'free and open elections', with a SLN fleet that just happens to still be in Beowulf (to guard against SEM aggression of course).

n7axw wrote:
I just went back and reread that section myself. I find myself wondering just how much of Honor's unease has to do with actual vulnerability and how much it has to do with the perception of the Sollies that Beowulf is vulnerable. Those are two different tthings.

Don

----------------------

Hence the concerns that the SLN Admiral might (or might not) have a bout of sanity when the targeting LIDAR lights him up near Beowulf's hyper limit.

-- Stewart

Hi Don,

I concur, HA-H's concerns seem more SLN perception based, ie the SLN thinks Beowulf is vulnerable, so they will attack and she will be forced to kill more people she otherwise wouldn't have to.

We don't know the sizes of the BSDF SD's, so they could be bigger or smaller than the BF 6.8 MT Scientist class, but using that as an average, they might tractor up to 80% of the 580 pods Home Fleet's 42 SD's each tractored at BoMA in AAC or 464 each for up to 16,704 pods; probably just the capacitor version, and easily enough to kill 750-900 BF SD's [probably far more than BF can assemble or risk] before considering Mycroft and Apollo, or when the SEM arrives from the termini which could be much faster than the SLN expects.

Brigade XO makes some excellent points, and I want to add my impression that the alliance will let the SLN cross the H-L while the directors and SLN argue their points to prove the SL is just as aggressive in violating the SL Constitution as they've said; but thanks to MDM's and Apollo in particular the GA could easily wait up to 90 minutes after they cross before dropping out of hyper and still be in range of the SLN TF ['s?], NTM enough time to look for a SLN mouse trap force hidden in some level of hyper space nearby, before giving the SLN final warning then letting the BSDF have he first shot.

I suspect the BSDF SD's have quite superior fire control, coupled with the later pods using one missile to relay fire control data to the rest in the pod, according to RFC's post regarding pre Apollo MDM's and the Apollo project, they should be able to control all the missiles they need before getting into rotating fire control channels etc.

Having the MAlign arrange a Eridani Edict violation has also been a concern both here and at the bar, but if my math is right a few hundred freighters could provide the 50% cover the planet needs from any kinetic missile impactor before getting into BSDF LAC's etc.

While the Beowulf merchant marine is quite large, in fact some early textev indicated it was larger than the MMM, which was then only the fourth largest; it might not hurt to have many GA freighters in orbit on hand to help passively defend Beowulf if it becomes necessary.

I wouldn't be surprised if Beowulf and HA-H chose to target only the commanding admiral's squadron first, in order to get to someone [smart enough] who would surrender the rest once they realized how outclassed they were.

L

n7axw wrote:

Brigade XO wrote:I went back into ART and Beowulf is proceeding with the installation of Mycroft. The problem was that they needed a couple of more months before it was going to be ready- or more- to be up and running.

It was mentioned that not only was it not a visable deterrent, but that they were apparently not going to be able to bring it on-line till it was compleat. The first part of that I can understand: you have highly stealthed control unit (the Keyhole 2) platforms as well as stealthed pods. With the range of the Manticore tech missiles and FTL tactical control you won't need either the control units nor pods in the acceptable traffic lanes in the system.
Not sure why they can't bring it up in sections as the Keyhole 2 units (and power supplies) are positioned along with the pods under their close control. Even a couple of units and a thousand pods are going to be able to give reach "across" the entire system with MDM missiles so IF the SLN shows up before the full system in in place, there will be an awful lot of MDMs available to stiffen BSDF defense. That is even if your pods are a long way beyond "normal" SLN powered flight ranges.

Part of this is when you/they expect the SLN to intervene with the vote process/results/

If the SLN puts a fleet into the Beowulf system before the vote, that is just as much Political influencing and Military intimidation tactics that would be called against Manticore. So, if said fleet shows up, the BSDF tells them to get the hell out of their sovereign system space and THEN uses that nice FTL to call for SEM/ROH fleets to come help.

If SLN put a fleet outside the territorial limit and holds there, waiting for the vote to be announced and then goes running in, it will have given BSDF a chance to turn the probable tactical path into a death trap. Even if SLN sends a force in multiple sections which hang in hyperspace around the system and then come in on message, I would think that the ship traffic (DDs and/or DBs) would give some indication.
Why not arrange for Haven to effectivly do the same thing and -with SEM DBs on the edge of the Beowulf system combined with Hermes Bouys- bring ROHN in as well. Haven should have both a much higher speed capablity (both actual and compensators) and seriously longer weapons reach so the SLN force(s) would find themselves trapped between BSDF and ROHN.
Could work.

I just went back and reread that section myself. I find myself wondering just how much of Honor's unease has to do with actual vulnerability and how much it has to do with the perception of the Sollies that Beowulf is vulnerable. Those are two different tthings.

Don

Yeah, Beowulf's SDs could tractor those pods, but do they have the fire contrl links to control them?

Don

lyonheart wrote:Hi Don,

I concur, HA-H's concerns seem more SLN perception based, ie the SLN thinks Beowulf is vulnerable, so they will attack and she will be forced to kill more people she otherwise wouldn't have to.

We don't know the sizes of the BSDF SD's, so they could be bigger or smaller than the BF 6.8 MT Scientist class, but using that as an average, they might tractor up to 80% of the 580 pods Home Fleet's 42 SD's each tractored at BoMA in AAC or 464 each for up to 16,704 pods; probably just the capacitor version, and easily enough to kill 750-900 BF SD's [probably far more than BF can assemble or risk] before considering Mycroft and Apollo, or when the SEM arrives from the termini which could be much faster than the SLN expects.

Brigade XO makes some excellent points, and I want to add my impression that the alliance will let the SLN cross the H-L while the directors and SLN argue their points to prove the SL is just as aggressive in violating the SL Constitution as they've said; but thanks to MDM's and Apollo in particular the GA could easily wait up to 90 minutes after they cross before dropping out of hyper and still be in range of the SLN TF ['s?], NTM enough time to look for a SLN mouse trap force hidden in some level of hyper space nearby, before giving the SLN final warning then letting the BSDF have he first shot.

I suspect the BSDF SD's have quite superior fire control, coupled with the later pods using one missile to relay fire control data to the rest in the pod, according to RFC's post regarding pre Apollo MDM's and the Apollo project, they should be able to control all the missiles they need before getting into rotating fire control channels etc.

Having the MAlign arrange a Eridani Edict violation has also been a concern both here and at the bar, but if my math is right a few hundred freighters could provide the 50% cover the planet needs from any kinetic missile impactor before getting into BSDF LAC's etc.

While the Beowulf merchant marine is quite large, in fact some early textev indicated it was larger than the MMM, which was then only the fourth largest; it might not hurt to have many GA freighters in orbit on hand to help passively defend Beowulf if it becomes necessary.

I wouldn't be surprised if Beowulf and HA-H chose to target only the commanding admiral's squadron first, in order to get to someone [smart enough] who would surrender the rest once they realized how outclassed they were.

L

I think the GA/SEM's plan is to let Beowulf defend itself, with a little help from Mycroft. If the RMN and RHN help, it would look like the SEM is leaning on Beowulf to force it to secede. Appearance is everything here atm and right now, the GA is doing everything it can to not overtly help Beowulf. If their fleets actively aided the Beowulf SDF, it could/would be spun by the SL media that the GA/SEM was, as I mentioned, leaning on Beowulf to make it vote the way the GA wants it to. Yes we know that's BS, but the perception with the rest of the SL would be that the SEM is lying if it aided Beowulf openly. So it's better to covertly aid Beowulf until after the vote happens, then go with the overt aid.

Zakharra wrote:

lyonheart wrote:Hi Don,

I concur, HA-H's concerns seem more SLN perception based, ie the SLN thinks Beowulf is vulnerable, so they will attack and she will be forced to kill more people she otherwise wouldn't have to.

We don't know the sizes of the BSDF SD's, so they could be bigger or smaller than the BF 6.8 MT Scientist class, but using that as an average, they might tractor up to 80% of the 580 pods Home Fleet's 42 SD's each tractored at BoMA in AAC or 464 each for up to 16,704 pods; probably just the capacitor version, and easily enough to kill 750-900 BF SD's [probably far more than BF can assemble or risk] before considering Mycroft and Apollo, or when the SEM arrives from the termini which could be much faster than the SLN expects.

Brigade XO makes some excellent points, and I want to add my impression that the alliance will let the SLN cross the H-L while the directors and SLN argue their points to prove the SL is just as aggressive in violating the SL Constitution as they've said; but thanks to MDM's and Apollo in particular the GA could easily wait up to 90 minutes after they cross before dropping out of hyper and still be in range of the SLN TF ['s?], NTM enough time to look for a SLN mouse trap force hidden in some level of hyper space nearby, before giving the SLN final warning then letting the BSDF have he first shot.

I suspect the BSDF SD's have quite superior fire control, coupled with the later pods using one missile to relay fire control data to the rest in the pod, according to RFC's post regarding pre Apollo MDM's and the Apollo project, they should be able to control all the missiles they need before getting into rotating fire control channels etc.

Having the MAlign arrange a Eridani Edict violation has also been a concern both here and at the bar, but if my math is right a few hundred freighters could provide the 50% cover the planet needs from any kinetic missile impactor before getting into BSDF LAC's etc.

While the Beowulf merchant marine is quite large, in fact some early textev indicated it was larger than the MMM, which was then only the fourth largest; it might not hurt to have many GA freighters in orbit on hand to help passively defend Beowulf if it becomes necessary.

I wouldn't be surprised if Beowulf and HA-H chose to target only the commanding admiral's squadron first, in order to get to someone [smart enough] who would surrender the rest once they realized how outclassed they were.

L

I think the GA/SEM's plan is to let Beowulf defend itself, with a little help from Mycroft. If the RMN and RHN help, it would look like the SEM is leaning on Beowulf to force it to secede. Appearance is everything here atm and right now, the GA is doing everything it can to not overtly help Beowulf. If their fleets actively aided the Beowulf SDF, it could/would be spun by the SL media that the GA/SEM was, as I mentioned, leaning on Beowulf to make it vote the way the GA wants it to. Yes we know that's BS, but the perception with the rest of the SL would be that the SEM is lying if it aided Beowulf openly. So it's better to covertly aid Beowulf until after the vote happens, then go with the overt aid.

As you say, appearance is everything. If it's just Admiral Tsang with her 100 SDs, Mycroft will undoubtedly be enough. If she's reinforced with those 600 SDs sitting at Tasmania, I expect that, even with Mycroft, they'll need the reinforcements parked in hyper so they aren't visible. That's also, by the way, a pretty good reason why the attack might be delayed a bit - it will take time for them to get the orders out to Tasmania and then get that fleet moving. By that time, with Admiral Henke sitting on Mesa, they might have some difficulty getting Cataphracts.

This discussion, though, is probably moot since Anton Z came through the Beowulf terminus on his way to Manticore after the plebiscite, and there was no mention of a SLN force interdicting the terminus, which there would almost certainly have been if they'd attacked and won.

JohnRoth wrote:As you say, appearance is everything. If it's just Admiral Tsang with her 100 SDs, Mycroft will undoubtedly be enough. If she's reinforced with those 600 SDs sitting at Tasmania, I expect that, even with Mycroft, they'll need the reinforcements parked in hyper so they aren't visible. That's also, by the way, a pretty good reason why the attack might be delayed a bit - it will take time for them to get the orders out to Tasmania and then get that fleet moving. By that time, with Admiral Henke sitting on Mesa, they might have some difficulty getting Cataphracts.

This discussion, though, is probably moot since Anton Z came through the Beowulf terminus on his way to Manticore after the plebiscite, and there was no mention of a SLN force interdicting the terminus, which there would almost certainly have been if they'd attacked and won.

Even if they attacked Beowulf and won, they would not be able to interdict the Wormhole. That's currently protected by Manticore, not Beowulf. Anton Zilwicki could easily have entered the system near the wormhole and transited to Manticore without any knowledge of what had happened at Beowulf.

SWM wrote:Even if they attacked Beowulf and won, they would not be able to interdict the Wormhole. That's currently protected by Manticore, not Beowulf. Anton Zilwicki could easily have entered the system near the wormhole and transited to Manticore without any knowledge of what had happened at Beowulf.

It's possible, but unlikely. The presence of two mutually-hostile fleets in a system is the sort of thing Astro Control is likely to mention.

Dafmeister wrote:

SWM wrote:Even if they attacked Beowulf and won, they would not be able to interdict the Wormhole. That's currently protected by Manticore, not Beowulf. Anton Zilwicki could easily have entered the system near the wormhole and transited to Manticore without any knowledge of what had happened at Beowulf.

It's possible, but unlikely. The presence of two mutually-hostile fleets in a system is the sort of thing Astro Control is likely to mention.

Not necessarily, if the hostile fleet is confined to the hyper limit, a light-hour away from the terminus. And even if Zilwicki was informed of something, it might not be included in the text of CoG, if David wants the outcome of the Beowulf referendum to be kept a surprise to the readers. We don't hear anything at all about Zilwicki's trip. Remember that we also did not know the details of Zilwicki's and Cachat's trip to Haven when they arrived in MoH.

SWM wrote:

JohnRoth wrote:As you say, appearance is everything. If it's just Admiral Tsang with her 100 SDs, Mycroft will undoubtedly be enough. If she's reinforced with those 600 SDs sitting at Tasmania, I expect that, even with Mycroft, they'll need the reinforcements parked in hyper so they aren't visible. That's also, by the way, a pretty good reason why the attack might be delayed a bit - it will take time for them to get the orders out to Tasmania and then get that fleet moving. By that time, with Admiral Henke sitting on Mesa, they might have some difficulty getting Cataphracts.

This discussion, though, is probably moot since Anton Z came through the Beowulf terminus on his way to Manticore after the plebiscite, and there was no mention of a SLN force interdicting the terminus, which there would almost certainly have been if they'd attacked and won.

Even if they attacked Beowulf and won, they would not be able to interdict the Wormhole. That's currently protected by Manticore, not Beowulf. Anton Zilwicki could easily have entered the system near the wormhole and transited to Manticore without any knowledge of what had happened at Beowulf.

The SLN does not attack Beowulf and "win" no matter how many SDs they bring to the party.

Or if they do break through to the orbitals, their "victory" lasts exactly as long as it takes for the RMN To arrive with their SDPs and boot them back out. Maybe a few hours??

They could wrack havoc on Beowulf's orbital structure, though.

Don