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Space Stations, Forts and Strategies

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Re: Space Stations, Forts and Strategies
Post by JeffEngel   » Mon Dec 01, 2014 11:06 pm

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BobfromSydney wrote:
JeffEngel wrote:
Bolthole boffins may be able to help those sensors, and work out something to pick up spider drive usage too. There may be some application for dedicated recon drone tender destroyers to check out those footprints - not built to fight much of anything, but to be an economical platform you can build and maintain in bulk to check out those footprints ASAP and flood the suspect area with recon drones. (I'd call it a frigate if not for fear of bringing the wrath of RFC down. :P But really, all the unit needs to be is a courier boat built up to support a load of drones and the gear to monitor and control them. If someone kills it, they've given up the stealth approach.)

If you have a suspect footprint, you could have some idea where a ballistic attack is coming from, and that could let you deploy mobile sensor platforms along that route to detect it. You could also deploy tugs or similar ships between that threat and likely targets - if you can put it in the right place, the impeller wedge will scotch any attack.


I totally disagree about that. If you send a gift-wrapped package of the latest ghost rider technology out of immediate support range of the rest of the fleet it is just asking to get bush-whacked. Someone will make an imprint, wait for the 'frigate' or 'destroyer' to turn up, then nail it and vacuum up the debris. Goodbye tech edge. The cavalry will show up a few hours later and find an empty battlefield.

If you are going to chase hyper imprints a long way out-system then you MUST send a force that is capable of self defence and mutual support.

Suggested forces:
A) CLAC + 1 CRU-RON
(CLAC dumps LACs and goes back into hyper. Comes back for pickup only after all-clear from a cruiser)
B) BATCRU-DIV + 1 DD-FLOT

Both suggested forces have a good balance of combat power and 'search' power.

You're flinging that out at every thing that is almost certainly a sensor ghost? If you have the resources to do that, well, I think maybe the rest of the universe has more to fear from you than the other way around. The idea here is to pounce on things that you'd ordinarily, and with excellent reason, write off as artifacts of excess possible pattern recognition or sensor glitches, if not for the stakes involved.

And if you are putting that much force out there, in addition to the sheer, astronomical waste of it and resources tied up chasing (almost certain) shadows, you're putting that much force out there where it could be ambushed by somewhat larger forces and nickle-and-dime your defenses away. The tiny drone tender works as a tripwire, in addition to a plain sensor platform - its disappearance definitively indicates hostile action, for minimal loss. Tough on the crews, granted, but tough on ten people is tough on a lot fewer than tough on a few hundred is, and the ten people are a lot smaller prize for the enemy than the few hundred.

Ghost Rider debris seems to be built with a lot of effort paid to making it useless. I figure if someone's that interested in getting some, conventional espionage will repay a lot better than blowing it up and sifting through the molecules before the now completely alerted system defenders show up.
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Re: Space Stations, Forts and Strategies
Post by SWM   » Mon Dec 01, 2014 11:33 pm

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JeffEngel wrote:You're flinging that out at every thing that is almost certainly a sensor ghost? If you have the resources to do that, well, I think maybe the rest of the universe has more to fear from you than the other way around. The idea here is to pounce on things that you'd ordinarily, and with excellent reason, write off as artifacts of excess possible pattern recognition or sensor glitches, if not for the stakes involved.

That's exactly what Manticore is doing. They send out a force of warships after every sensor ghost above a certain threshold. And clearly that threshold is set correctly, because it did catch the arrival of the Sharks despite their best efforts to be sneaky. Manticore doesn't have to chase after fainter ghosts because they already know they can detect the very best stealthed transit ever made.
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Re: Space Stations, Forts and Strategies
Post by n7axw   » Mon Dec 01, 2014 11:38 pm

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Thanks for your patience with my question about the forts. I should have picked up on that myself...

In the immortalized word of Shannon Foracker: "oops!"

Don
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: Space Stations, Forts and Strategies
Post by kzt   » Tue Dec 02, 2014 12:15 am

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BobfromSydney wrote:If you are going to chase hyper imprints a long way out-system then you MUST send a force that is capable of self defence and mutual support.

Suggested forces:
A) CLAC + 1 CRU-RON
(CLAC dumps LACs and goes back into hyper. Comes back for pickup only after all-clear from a cruiser)
B) BATCRU-DIV + 1 DD-FLOT

Both suggested forces have a good balance of combat power and 'search' power.

Way too little actually. The attack force was something on the order of 12 battleships. The next one will be a LOT tougher.
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Re: Space Stations, Forts and Strategies
Post by Draken   » Tue Dec 02, 2014 3:04 am

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Probably easier would be for Manticore to have something like 10 battle squadrons hiding in hyper and courier somewhere close. When something shoe up on arrays send signal and coordinates to courier and he will jump for SDs and send them where they must jump.
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Re: Space Stations, Forts and Strategies
Post by kzt   » Tue Dec 02, 2014 4:50 am

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Draken wrote:Probably easier would be for Manticore to have something like 10 battle squadrons hiding in hyper and courier somewhere close. When something shoe up on arrays send signal and coordinates to courier and he will jump for SDs and send them where they must jump.

How long does it take for a signal along the alpha wat to travel two light months?

How many hyperspace transits can a pair of DDs do in that time? Let's assume 1 hour between transits.

Assume you dedicate a squadron of DDs to doing this, how many hyperspace transits can 4 pairs of DDs do in that period?

How many ships are you going to send to chase each of these down? What percentage of the entire RMN are you willing to dedicate to this task? What will you have available for the 34th echo you detect in a 12 hour period?

To the initial observer, what is the difference between a point where a ship jumped in and then right back out and one where 120 million tons of spider SDs have transited and are a light hour out and coasting away at .15c?
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Re: Space Stations, Forts and Strategies
Post by The E   » Tue Dec 02, 2014 6:20 am

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kzt wrote:How long does it take for a signal along the alpha wat to travel two light months?

How many hyperspace transits can a pair of DDs do in that time? Let's assume 1 hour between transits.

Assume you dedicate a squadron of DDs to doing this, how many hyperspace transits can 4 pairs of DDs do in that period?

How many ships are you going to send to chase each of these down? What percentage of the entire RMN are you willing to dedicate to this task? What will you have available for the 34th echo you detect in a 12 hour period?

To the initial observer, what is the difference between a point where a ship jumped in and then right back out and one where 120 million tons of spider SDs have transited and are a light hour out and coasting away at .15c?


FTL comm speed is about 62c. For a signal originating 2 light months out, that means that it will be detected a day later. Assuming that a picket will go up to the beta band, it can be on station about three hours after getting the go signal, so any ship making transit has 25 to 30 hours to move away, which makes for an uncomfortably large volume of space that has to be searched.

So I figure that any picket will have to search around for a day or two before they can confirm whether or not an actual contact happened.

With this in mind, you cannot use heavy forces to investigate contacts, because you cannot deploy enough of them.
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Re: Space Stations, Forts and Strategies
Post by Jonathan_S   » Tue Dec 02, 2014 9:44 am

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SWM wrote:
JeffEngel wrote:You're flinging that out at every thing that is almost certainly a sensor ghost? If you have the resources to do that, well, I think maybe the rest of the universe has more to fear from you than the other way around. The idea here is to pounce on things that you'd ordinarily, and with excellent reason, write off as artifacts of excess possible pattern recognition or sensor glitches, if not for the stakes involved.

That's exactly what Manticore is doing. They send out a force of warships after every sensor ghost above a certain threshold. And clearly that threshold is set correctly, because it did catch the arrival of the Sharks despite their best efforts to be sneaky. Manticore doesn't have to chase after fainter ghosts because they already know they can detect the very best stealthed transit ever made.
Yes, but they're flinging DDs - the smallest ship capable of getting itself there in time to investigate while still having a prayer of looking out for itself. (Not to mention having enough of a tactical section to control a lot of drones to do the real scouting)

They aren't (currently) sending CLACs and Cruiser / Battle Cruiser squadrons. Because while those are more survivable, they're also less expendable than DDs - so if they run into a overwhelming force you can more easily afford to lose the DDs than the BCs.
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Re: Space Stations, Forts and Strategies
Post by kzt   » Tue Dec 02, 2014 10:22 am

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Jonathan_S wrote:Yes, but they're flinging DDs - the smallest ship capable of getting itself there in time to investigate while still having a prayer of looking out for itself. (Not to mention having enough of a tactical section to control a lot of drones to do the real scouting)

They aren't (currently) sending CLACs and Cruiser / Battle Cruiser squadrons. Because while those are more survivable, they're also less expendable than DDs - so if they run into a overwhelming force you can more easily afford to lose the DDs than the BCs.

The drawback is that if they are not there for the initial search they won't be there ever. The spider forces are in a zone where they can hyper out, and the volume they can occupy gets so huge so fast that you can't effectively cover it from the alpha side. Plus you can't chase a ship with a streak drive very wel into hyper, it can run where you can't.
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Re: Space Stations, Forts and Strategies
Post by SWM   » Tue Dec 02, 2014 10:31 am

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Jonathan_S wrote:
SWM wrote:That's exactly what Manticore is doing. They send out a force of warships after every sensor ghost above a certain threshold. And clearly that threshold is set correctly, because it did catch the arrival of the Sharks despite their best efforts to be sneaky. Manticore doesn't have to chase after fainter ghosts because they already know they can detect the very best stealthed transit ever made.
Yes, but they're flinging DDs - the smallest ship capable of getting itself there in time to investigate while still having a prayer of looking out for itself. (Not to mention having enough of a tactical section to control a lot of drones to do the real scouting)

They aren't (currently) sending CLACs and Cruiser / Battle Cruiser squadrons. Because while those are more survivable, they're also less expendable than DDs - so if they run into a overwhelming force you can more easily afford to lose the DDs than the BCs.

True, but David himself hinted that that they might send out CLACs with destroyer squadrons in the future, in http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/en ... gton/289/1:
runsforcelery wrote:If I were designing the RMN's "quick response" recon forces (which, by an odd coincidence, I am responsible for doing) they would be built around a small number of specifically tasked groups of destroyers and a single CLAC. They would be dispatched to the coordinates of any suspect datum, and once they reached those coordinates, they would be tasked to search a volume around them which would allow for a rate of advance by any incoming force which would be at least twice that of which I believe the attackers to actually be capable. They would deploy recon platforms in profusion and they would operate two shells of RDs: one working its way in from the outer perimeter of the sphere to be searched, and another working its way out from the center. The CLAC would remain a light-minute or so away from any anticipated danger, staying in contact via FTL com, and would be available to provide a massive launch of LACs if an opponent suitable for its engagement turned up. If, instead, an entire enemy Battle Fleet turned up, then Home Fleet would be on call to deal with it. And, in the meantime, I would not have invested billions of dollars, hundreds of thousands of tons of shipping, and tens of thousands of personnel in a fleet of ships which had no other function but to run around, look for the enemy, and either run away very fast ' or die ' if they detect the enemy.
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