Solarian Military Catchup Attempts

Zakharra wrote:True, but any FF/BF captain should be assuming that any LAC in SEM space or running with SEM merchant ships and/or showing a RMN IFF is -not- going to be a regular run of the mill LAC like the second rate systems LACs. If those captains are wanting to return home, they and their officers and crews will likely assume that the LACs are much nastier than regular LACs and are likely to be a tough customer to fight.

I suspect that any SLN encounter with modern RMN LACs is going to get the "sure they've made a few advances, but surely not as many or as much as has been claimed" treatment.

SLN ship commanders haven't any idea exactly how far beyond their wildest projections Manty Tech has advanced. Even those few SLN officers we've encountered that believe all of the "wild reports" about Manty Tech are still underestimating what is possible.

In the case of LACs, even those SLN personnel who witnessed the demonstration of the LAC Grazer after the battle of Spindle -- and Adm Cleary(?) was paroled and sent back to Sol with her own report and sensor readings of the battle and demonstration -- are being dismissed as incompetent cowards who would mistake a bright flashlight for a deadly grazer.

crewdude48 wrote:I don't know where, but I seem to remember a short article somebody wrote, where an Officer of the Invincible Solarian League Navy dismissed the preposterous ranges that the neobarbs from Manticore attributed to their MDMs, or Mighty Dragon-slaying Missiles, by saying that they obviously had the scale of their displays set incorrectly. Did anybody else read this, or am I going nuts?

You're not nuts, I think it was part of Capt Fanudahi's explanation of why SDF observer reports were being disregarded. I don't recall exactly where that can be found though.

I kind of suspect that the Mesan Alignment being allowed to set up camp inside of the SLN for the last century or two might have had just a tiny bit to do with this attitude.

Weird Harold wrote:

Zakharra wrote:True, but any FF/BF captain should be assuming that any LAC in SEM space or running with SEM merchant ships and/or showing a RMN IFF is -not- going to be a regular run of the mill LAC like the second rate systems LACs. If those captains are wanting to return home, they and their officers and crews will likely assume that the LACs are much nastier than regular LACs and are likely to be a tough customer to fight.

I suspect that any SLN encounter with modern RMN LACs is going to get the "sure they've made a few advances, but surely not as many or as much as has been claimed" treatment.

SLN ship commanders haven't any idea exactly how far beyond their wildest projections Manty Tech has advanced. Even those few SLN officers we've encountered that believe all of the "wild reports" about Manty Tech are still underestimating what is possible.

In the case of LACs, even those SLN personnel who witnessed the demonstration of the LAC Grazer after the battle of Spindle -- and Adm Cleary(?) was paroled and sent back to Sol with her own report and sensor readings of the battle and demonstration -- are being dismissed as incompetent cowards who would mistake a bright flashlight for a deadly grazer.

crewdude48 wrote:I don't know where, but I seem to remember a short article somebody wrote, where an Officer of the Invincible Solarian League Navy dismissed the preposterous ranges that the neobarbs from Manticore attributed to their MDMs, or Mighty Dragon-slaying Missiles, by saying that they obviously had the scale of their displays set incorrectly. Did anybody else read this, or am I going nuts?

You're not nuts, I think it was part of Capt Fanudahi's explanation of why SDF observer reports were being disregarded. I don't recall exactly where that can be found though.

After 2nd Manticore, only an idiot would believe that. I am sure some SLN ship captains will keep to that thought, but those that want to survive, will likely assume that any RMN LACs are a -lot- better than other LACs. Given what the RMN has achieved with missiles and the FTL and ships, it would be utter foolishness to assume that they would keep the same arrogant condescending attitude about RMN LACs.

Virtually any SLN officer who truly realises the full extent of their capability disparity is pretty much limited to recommending non-confrontation. There's a quote about Ulysses S. Grant that comes to mind - "I can't spare this man, he fights."

Probably any SLN commander who next engages the GA will have been selected on that basis, which means they have the preconceived notion that victory is possible. That's difficult to reconcile with the idea that LACs are capable of curbstomping destroyers and cruisers(remember that Masadan LAC's surprise attack on Honor's squadron at Yeltsin doing very little damage comparatively), let alone being capable of dealing with SDs.

But the "arrogant condescending attitude" will be absent, as they'll likely never see the LACs coming until their missiles launch!

Zakharra wrote: After 2nd Manticore, only an idiot would believe that. I am sure some SLN ship captains will keep to that thought, but those that want to survive, will likely assume that any RMN LACs are a -lot- better than other LACs. Given what the RMN has achieved with missiles and the FTL and ships, it would be utter foolishness to assume that they would keep the same arrogant condescending attitude about RMN LACs.

Given that the Mandarins are spinning 2BOM as the result of treachery rather than technical superiority, why should should any SLN ship captain gain any realistic appreciation of the danger GA ships present? GA LACs in particular.

As for "Only an Idiot" -- what gives you the impression that the majority of SLN ship captains owe their positions to ability instead of patronage. The SLN is run by Elvis Santino and Pavel Young clones.

Weird Harold wrote:

Zakharra wrote: After 2nd Manticore, only an idiot would believe that. I am sure some SLN ship captains will keep to that thought, but those that want to survive, will likely assume that any RMN LACs are a -lot- better than other LACs. Given what the RMN has achieved with missiles and the FTL and ships, it would be utter foolishness to assume that they would keep the same arrogant condescending attitude about RMN LACs.

Given that the Mandarins are spinning 2BOM as the result of treachery rather than technical superiority, why should should any SLN ship captain gain any realistic appreciation of the danger GA ships present? GA LACs in particular.

As for "Only an Idiot" -- what gives you the impression that the majority of SLN ship captains owe their positions to ability instead of patronage. The SLN is run by Elvis Santino and Pavel Young clones.

And the LACs used at second Manticore were used in a defensive role, not offensive, and there is no textev that the ISLN ever got tactical level detail about that battle - all of the ships destroyed were done via the system defense pods, which means that the Santino and Young clones running the ISLN can continue to believe that ship borne missiles can't have the range attributed to them.

I could see an SLN officer accepting that the new Manti LACs must offer something. The fact that they built CLACs is public knowledge, and who in their right mind would transport old style LACs across the stars. (Please note, I said "in their right mind," specifically excluding Masada.)

I could see one of them assuming that new LACs could take on destroyers and even CLs on an equal tonnage basis, and possibly even a CA with some advantage, but there is no way they could hurt a BC with out massive advantage. You just can't cram powerful enough weapons into something that size. The fact that the new LACs could take out DDs and CLs on an equal hull number basis would never even cross their mind. And an LAC that can take out an SD, under any circumstances, would be considered just pure fantasy.

crewdude48 wrote:I could see an SLN officer accepting that the new Manti LACs must offer something. The fact that they built CLACs is public knowledge, and who in their right mind would transport old style LACs across the stars. (Please note, I said "in their right mind," specifically excluding Masada.)

I could see one of them assuming that new LACs could take on destroyers and even CLs on an equal tonnage basis, and possibly even a CA with some advantage, but there is no way they could hurt a BC with out massive advantage. You just can't cram powerful enough weapons into something that size. The fact that the new LACs could take out DDs and CLs on an equal hull number basis would never even cross their mind. And an LAC that can take out an SD, under any circumstances, would be considered just pure fantasy.

Given the god-awful missile swarms that podnaughts are capable of firing off I could see a SLN analysist making the wrong conclusion. That the GA LACs are pretty much pure missile defense units, and the CLACs were build to carry them around so the LACs could missile screen the wall in remote star-systems.

Sure, we all know that's wrong. That at least Shrikes and Ferrets are capable of ripping apart anything below the wall (as long as they have the numbers). But the SLN doesn't automatically have to assume that the CLACs were designed to allow detached offensive action by LACs.

Jonathan_S wrote:Sure, we all know that's wrong. That at least Shrikes and Ferrets are capable of ripping apart anything below the wall (as long as they have the numbers). But the SLN doesn't automatically have to assume that the CLACs were designed to allow detached offensive action by LACs.

It's pretty obvious from any news reports on BoM that this isn't true. The fact that the Home Fleet LACs killed pretty much everything below the wall that 2nd had is not going to be a huge secret.

It seems to me we need to allow for the possibility that the idiots will soon be purged from the gene pool. What will be left will be people of reasonable intelligence who may be uninformed, but also smart enough to understand that they are uninformed, needing better info.

The drama that remains is whether or not these people are able to cope with the mess the idiots have left in their wake.

I don't expect them to be able to salvage the whole thing. If there is anything left of the League, it will be dramatically reduced in size and scope.

Don