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Space Stations, Forts and Strategies

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Re: Space Stations, Forts and Strategies
Post by cthia   » Sun Nov 30, 2014 3:50 pm

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Wherever we turn in missile warfare, we're faced with the possibility of a ballistic component of a missile attack, coming in at .99c end run.

There has to be something we can do. Can we simulate Bolthole? Can we think outside the box, or will any such attempt surely tank? Shall we try? Any ideas? I'll give it a go.

We have Apollo. We have FTL capability. We have radar capability. We have super computer capability.

Can we manufacture a platform and seed them in a 360 degree shell about a space station, at optimum distances from station and each other, designed for activatation during ballistic attacks? Radar returns from ballistic objects will be picked up by platforms and then FTL'd back to station defenses, updated in real-time and anti-missile fire can be plotted. Why does this not work? The radar return to platform would be limited to light speed, but FTL from platforms to space station. Why will this not work?

Radar 101: Wiki
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radar

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Re: Space Stations, Forts and Strategies
Post by The E   » Sun Nov 30, 2014 4:34 pm

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It's a scale problem. In order to bring active defenses to bear against a c-fractional strike, you need to be able to detect it and boot your active defenses before the projectile does damage. This means that detection has to happen at a range of several lightminutes; a .99c projectile will be hot on the heels of the returning radar pulse, in order for a warning to be useful, it needs to come in a couple of minutes before the projectile is in range. In other words, detection needs to happen at 3 to 5 lightminutes at the latest, covering a shell that large with both sensor and defensive platforms takes time and resources.

It's not impossible to do this, mind you. It's just hilariously wasteful. Let's not forget, c-fractional strikes are incredibly rare, so you'd be expending massive efforts to guard against an attack that will probably never happen.
There are occasions where building such a defense system is justifiable. Grayson before HotQ, for example. But what occurs to me is that it's probably easier to build a navy to punch people preemptively (or to maintain a retaliation capability to act as a deterrent) than it is to try to maintain a supposedly impenetrable defensive screen.

And let's not kid ourselves here: Honorverse tech makes it incredibly easy to pull off attacks. No defense is absolute, and if an attacker is determined enough, such a defensive system would be only a minor inconvenience; after all, if you can launch one c-fractional projectile, chances are you're able to launch a hundred or a thousand or however many are necessary to overwhelm any given defense.
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Re: Space Stations, Forts and Strategies
Post by Michael Everett   » Sun Nov 30, 2014 4:38 pm

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cthia wrote:Why will this not work?

Radar 101: Wiki
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radar


Space is big.

Stupidly big.

The amount of energy you need to perform a 360 degree radar sweep over interplanetary distances is also stupidly big.

For any distance over a couple of planetary diameters, you need special high-powered comm-lasers and a pretty good idea of where the receiver will be when the laser reaches it. Trying to do spherical radar pulses over even larger distances...

...since we don't have anti-matter reactors, singularity generators or Hyper Taps in the Honorverse, the systems can be built but won't be capable of much more than existing radar systems.

And that doesn't even count what would happen if the incoming missiles have a radar-reflecting cone at the front, bouncing the radar pulses sideways rather than back at the radar installation(s)...
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Re: Space Stations, Forts and Strategies
Post by Weird Harold   » Sun Nov 30, 2014 4:43 pm

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cthia wrote:Why does this not work?


It would probably work against high-speed, long-range ballistic attacks, but that isn't the main threat space stations and forts face.

The main threat(s) faced by stations and forts is a short-range attack that doesn't give time for a response of any kind. EG Grazer-torpedoes with an undetectable drive and bleeding-edge stealth, or a ship approaching to a station turning Kamikaze instead of shutting it's impeller drive down and waiting for a tug.

The answer to the first threat is to develop a way to detect a spider drive in operation. No practical plan can be developed until the threat can be detected.

The answer to the second threat is already in place; a two-man required in-system pilot team required for all ships inside the "no lone zone."
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Re: Space Stations, Forts and Strategies
Post by JeffEngel   » Sun Nov 30, 2014 4:57 pm

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The E wrote:It's a scale problem. In order to bring active defenses to bear against a c-fractional strike, you need to be able to detect it and boot your active defenses before the projectile does damage. This means that detection has to happen at a range of several lightminutes; a .99c projectile will be hot on the heels of the returning radar pulse, in order for a warning to be useful, it needs to come in a couple of minutes before the projectile is in range. In other words, detection needs to happen at 3 to 5 lightminutes at the latest, covering a shell that large with both sensor and defensive platforms takes time and resources.

It's not impossible to do this, mind you. It's just hilariously wasteful. Let's not forget, c-fractional strikes are incredibly rare, so you'd be expending massive efforts to guard against an attack that will probably never happen.
There are occasions where building such a defense system is justifiable. Grayson before HotQ, for example. But what occurs to me is that it's probably easier to build a navy to punch people preemptively (or to maintain a retaliation capability to act as a deterrent) than it is to try to maintain a supposedly impenetrable defensive screen.

And let's not kid ourselves here: Honorverse tech makes it incredibly easy to pull off attacks. No defense is absolute, and if an attacker is determined enough, such a defensive system would be only a minor inconvenience; after all, if you can launch one c-fractional projectile, chances are you're able to launch a hundred or a thousand or however many are necessary to overwhelm any given defense.


The basic serious system defense already employs a whole lot of sensor coverage, aimed not at the near-c ballistic attack near to the target, but at the hyper translation and impeller signatures way out. Spider drives particularly mean the impeller detection component can't do the work it traditionally has, and the incoming hyper translations of careful and patient people can be very hard to catch, to distinguish from noise or malfunctions, or to respond to before they get far enough away from the n-space entry point to be detectable.

FTL communications can help tremendously - they offer that hope of actually responding faster than a near-c attack as you see it coming in. But yeah, the scale to make a difference at that point is prohibitive. Beefing up the traditional defense, with an awareness of the higher threat level and stealth problems against spider drive units, is doable: you can get faster and more serious responses out of the light units checking out those slight hyper footprints, you can station them out at the hyperlimit with warm generators so they get there sooner, you can tie them directly to sensors out there to reduce the command loop, and you can emphasize detection by every in addition to gravitics.

Bolthole boffins may be able to help those sensors, and work out something to pick up spider drive usage too. There may be some application for dedicated recon drone tender destroyers to check out those footprints - not built to fight much of anything, but to be an economical platform you can build and maintain in bulk to check out those footprints ASAP and flood the suspect area with recon drones. (I'd call it a frigate if not for fear of bringing the wrath of RFC down. :P But really, all the unit needs to be is a courier boat built up to support a load of drones and the gear to monitor and control them. If someone kills it, they've given up the stealth approach.)

If you have a suspect footprint, you could have some idea where a ballistic attack is coming from, and that could let you deploy mobile sensor platforms along that route to detect it. You could also deploy tugs or similar ships between that threat and likely targets - if you can put it in the right place, the impeller wedge will scotch any attack.
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Re: Space Stations, Forts and Strategies
Post by kzt   » Sun Nov 30, 2014 5:06 pm

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Draken wrote:Around Junction we have two battle squadrons and screen for them and a lot of big and nasty forts with generous supply of pods. It's mentioned in War of Honor when Grayson units jumped very close to Junction and started accelerating toward it, also when Haven attacked Manticore there is another moment when they're talking about them.

The RMN places their mobile fleet units assigned to Manticore differently based on how the RZ interacts with the inhabited planets along with other needs. At some points it's largely out by the junction, sometimes it's at Sphinx, it might be stationed elsewhere at other times.
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Re: Space Stations, Forts and Strategies
Post by kzt   » Sun Nov 30, 2014 5:17 pm

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The Manticore approach of having your critical military construction nodes also be the break in bulk shipping node is terribly open to attack. You put a 100 mt grav pinch fusion bomb in a container and ship it to Manticore marked as electronics. As David has explained previously, modern grav fusion bombs are pretty much a bunch of electronics, no radioactive elements needed. Once it is on the station it goes bang, game over.

Until you resolve that there really isn't any purpose in designing your defenses to protect against massively more expensive and complex attacks.
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Re: Space Stations, Forts and Strategies
Post by JeffEngel   » Sun Nov 30, 2014 6:01 pm

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kzt wrote:The Manticore approach of having your critical military construction nodes also be the break in bulk shipping node is terribly open to attack. You put a 100 mt grav pinch fusion bomb in a container and ship it to Manticore marked as electronics. As David has explained previously, modern grav fusion bombs are pretty much a bunch of electronics, no radioactive elements needed. Once it is on the station it goes bang, game over.

Until you resolve that there really isn't any purpose in designing your defenses to protect against massively more expensive and complex attacks.

And yet, wars have happened and those stations not gone up like popcorn, so there's indirect reason to think something's stopping that. What, I don't know, but either the author does or will make it up as needed.
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Re: Space Stations, Forts and Strategies
Post by n7axw   » Sun Nov 30, 2014 6:07 pm

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SWM wrote:
Theemile wrote:See the last paragraph of vince's post up-thred - he has text-ev of Manty planetary forts.

Thanks. I misremembered the text.


Distinguish between junction forts and planetary forts. We know from textev that they have the former. Do we have evidence for planetary forts?

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Re: Space Stations, Forts and Strategies
Post by Theemile   » Sun Nov 30, 2014 9:53 pm

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n7axw wrote:
Theemile wrote:See the last paragraph of vince's post up-thred - he has text-ev of Manty planetary forts.


Distinguish between junction forts and planetary forts. We know from textev that they have the former. Do we have evidence for planetary forts?

Don



Don, at the bottom of Vince's post was quotes specifically mentioning the planetary forts at Gryphon, Sphinx and Manticore getting KH-II upgrades in that order and why.
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