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Church Financial status

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Re: Church Financial status
Post by lyonheart   » Sat Nov 29, 2014 7:34 pm

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Hi Henry Brown,

I agree Duchairn is very capable, but I don't see him being able to expand the CoGA economies in the time left, ie 2 years on the outside.

Do you have any suggestions of what he might try?

His major problem is Clyntahn keeps blindsiding him with things like the economic blockade, closing the ports, a galleon navy when the galleys were already being built, the SoS, but now the alliance is adding military defeats, canal raids, and naval blockades that ruin his decisions, like building the latest open hearth furnaces in South Harchong, so all that investment isn't returning anything to the jihad.

Then there's the loss of Silkiah and Dohlar that's about to happen while Desnar is no great loss, possibly even saving temple gold from no longer being able to subsidize them, but since the Border States have never been considered industrial power houses, he is left with less and less to produce the needed replacements.

Those obvious facts will reduce the investor's faith the jihad will succeed, reducing its prospects even further.

Duchairn will continue to increase revenues but the unapparent price Clyntahn won't see or care about will be terrible and quite hazardous to Clyntahn's health.

L


Henry Brown wrote:
Draken wrote:Church is losing money very fast, army isn't cheap it's like a black hole which will eat any money it can find. Haven is different thing, compared to CoGa it looks healthy. Church need any money and can't get it easily, Haven hadn't that problem, they have money, but they spend it on useless things. Unless Church want to kill his economy using taxes and fees, he has one option making as many coins as possible and don't think about inflation. It's longer term suicide but for 1-3 years it would be OK, but not great, after that time inflation would be skyrocketing.
Another problem for Church is that Siddamark, Charis, Chisholm, Emerald, Corrisand, Tarot aren't big, but are very very rich and cash from them was a big chunk of they income. They have a lot of money in vaults but it will be burned in few months term.


I disagree. Remember, Duchairn is in charge of the CoG finances. He is extremely capable. The primary reason the CoG is in such dire financial straits is due to *Clyntahn's* policies, such as his insistence on closing mainland ports to Charisan shipping and his decision to launch the Sword of Schueler against Siddarmark (which Duchairn did not know about and therefore could not plan for).

The point I'm trying to make is that Duchairn is a financial wizard. So far he has been forced to play catch-up, but he has still managed to keep the CoG afloat. I don't think he is going to passively stand by and blow all of the CoG reserves without taking action. I expect he will take steps to either increase revenue or to grow the mainland realms economies before the CoG goes bankrupt. In fact, I think he will do both.
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Re: Church Financial status
Post by lyonheart   » Sat Nov 29, 2014 7:38 pm

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Hi Phillies,

I believe the conversation between Duchairn and Trynair early in MTaT will be quite informative as Duchairn touches on their choices, the fact that neither wants a command economy indicates that they have seen it tried and fail miserably somewhere in their memory.

L


phillies wrote:I do not see evidence that anyone on Charis (i) has ever heard of a command economy, (ii) has any idea how to implement one, or (iii) has the technical resources to attempt to make one work however poorly.
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Re: Church Financial status
Post by Henry Brown   » Sun Nov 30, 2014 2:00 am

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lyonheart wrote:Hi Henry Brown,

I agree Duchairn is very capable, but I don't see him being able to expand the CoGA economies in the time left, ie 2 years on the outside.

Do you have any suggestions of what he might try?

His major problem is Clyntahn keeps blindsiding him with things like the economic blockade, closing the ports, a galleon navy when the galleys were already being built, the SoS, but now the alliance is adding military defeats, canal raids, and naval blockades that ruin his decisions, like building the latest open hearth furnaces in South Harchong, so all that investment isn't returning anything to the jihad.

Then there's the loss of Silkiah and Dohlar that's about to happen while Desnar is no great loss, possibly even saving temple gold from no longer being able to subsidize them, but since the Border States have never been considered industrial power houses, he is left with less and less to produce the needed replacements.

Those obvious facts will reduce the investor's faith the jihad will succeed, reducing its prospects even further.

Duchairn will continue to increase revenues but the unapparent price Clyntahn won't see or care about will be terrible and quite hazardous to Clyntahn's health.

L




Hello Lyonheart.

There are a few things I think he can try to grow economies. The 3 biggest things that occur to me off the top of my head would be:

1. Adopting some of the non-military advances Charis has already introduced. As far as I can tell from the text-ev, the only kind of Charis innovations the CoG and the mainland realms are using are the strictly military stuff like improved artillery or rifles. They have ignored the civilian side. Way back in OAR, Merlin introduced powered looms and spinning jennies in Charis and revolutionized the textile industry there. If Duchairn could introduce this on the mainland, it could lead to increased production and hence economic growth.

2. Improved manufacturing techniques. Right now the mainland realms seem to handle manufacturing largely by skilled craftsmen who are organized in guilds. Not the most efficient system by any means. In LAMA there was a circle system introduced which the CoG is using to make firearms. IIRC, a group of journeymen each concentrate on one particular aspect of firearm making under the direction of a gunsmith. This system is not as good as a true assemble line, but better than anything else the mainland has. If Duchairn could apply this system to areas other than gun making, he could increase efficiency and create economic growth.

3. Direct control of the Harchongese economy. I believe the CoG is already heading in this direction, but have yet to implement full central control. And normally I am not a fan of centralized, command economies. I fully realize command economies have significant drawbacks. I normally would not advocate a command economy system as a means of economic growth. But Harchong seems to be so incredibly inefficient and corrupt that in this case I think it actually would be an improvement.
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Re: Church Financial status
Post by fallsfromtrees   » Sun Nov 30, 2014 5:15 am

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Henry Brown wrote:
lyonheart wrote:Hi Henry Brown,

I agree Duchairn is very capable, but I don't see him being able to expand the CoGA economies in the time left, ie 2 years on the outside.

Do you have any suggestions of what he might try?

His major problem is Clyntahn keeps blindsiding him with things like the economic blockade, closing the ports, a galleon navy when the galleys were already being built, the SoS, but now the alliance is adding military defeats, canal raids, and naval blockades that ruin his decisions, like building the latest open hearth furnaces in South Harchong, so all that investment isn't returning anything to the jihad.

Then there's the loss of Silkiah and Dohlar that's about to happen while Desnar is no great loss, possibly even saving temple gold from no longer being able to subsidize them, but since the Border States have never been considered industrial power houses, he is left with less and less to produce the needed replacements.

Those obvious facts will reduce the investor's faith the jihad will succeed, reducing its prospects even further.

Duchairn will continue to increase revenues but the unapparent price Clyntahn won't see or care about will be terrible and quite hazardous to Clyntahn's health.

L




Hello Lyonheart.

There are a few things I think he can try to grow economies. The 3 biggest things that occur to me off the top of my head would be:

1. Adopting some of the non-military advances Charis has already introduced. As far as I can tell from the text-ev, the only kind of Charis innovations the CoG and the mainland realms are using are the strictly military stuff like improved artillery or rifles. They have ignored the civilian side. Way back in OAR, Merlin introduced powered looms and spinning jennies in Charis and revolutionized the textile industry there. If Duchairn could introduce this on the mainland, it could lead to increased production and hence economic growth.

2. Improved manufacturing techniques. Right now the mainland realms seem to handle manufacturing largely by skilled craftsmen who are organized in guilds. Not the most efficient system by any means. In LAMA there was a circle system introduced which the CoG is using to make firearms. IIRC, a group of journeymen each concentrate on one particular aspect of firearm making under the direction of a gunsmith. This system is not as good as a true assemble line, but better than anything else the mainland has. If Duchairn could apply this system to areas other than gun making, he could increase efficiency and create economic growth.

3. Direct control of the Harchongese economy. I believe the CoG is already heading in this direction, but have yet to implement full central control. And normally I am not a fan of centralized, command economies. I fully realize command economies have significant drawbacks. I normally would not advocate a command economy system as a means of economic growth. But Harchong seems to be so incredibly inefficient and corrupt that in this case I think it actually would be an improvement.

WRT to number 1 - Not gonna happen. Actually it might be a way to get rid of Clyntahn, since when Duchairn suggests doing this Clyntahn won't say aything - he'll kill himself going through the battle steel ceiling. The only reason he is willing to accept any of the military innovations that Charis has made is that he realizes that there is no way to beat Charis unless he does, but he will be damned if he will accept any thing else that Charis does.

On number 2, you will get a lot of resistance from the guild masters who will see it as an erosion of their power. The only reason it is going to happen in gun manufacture is that the Inquisition is standing behind the masters tapping their feet, saying "Go ahead and complain - Make my day". You won't get that level of commitment from the Inquisition for other manufacturing processes, as they are taking their lead from Clyntah.

On number 3, maybe, but you are going to need an awful lot of Inquisitors to watch over the bureaucrats in Harchong, or it will be business as usual, and by the way, the Inquisitors had better be honest, or they will just get bribed to look the other way while the bureaucrats continue business as usual. As an aside, it took the Chinese Communists a decade to make significant societal changes due to just this sort of inertia, and that was using fairly ruthless methods. Duchairn doesn't have ten years - he may not have 10 months.
========================

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Re: Church Financial status
Post by Keith_w   » Sun Nov 30, 2014 8:52 am

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WRT number 1, you might also want to remember that so far CoGA has only discovered EoCs improvments by examining captured items (except of course for military information that their spy, Trai Sahlavahn, sent to them). They have, AFAIK, no way of discovering how the existence of powered looms, cotton gins or any other improved manufacturing process.
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Re: Church Financial status
Post by Henry Brown   » Sun Nov 30, 2014 10:04 am

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Keith_w wrote:WRT number 1, you might also want to remember that so far CoGA has only discovered EoCs improvments by examining captured items (except of course for military information that their spy, Trai Sahlavahn, sent to them). They have, AFAIK, no way of discovering how the existence of powered looms, cotton gins or any other improved manufacturing process.


You might have a point about some of the most recent stuff, but the looms, cotton gins, and textile stuff were introduced before the war started. They were examined by Paityr Wylsynn when he was still a member of the CoG and he determined, in his official capacity, they did not violate the proscriptions. And he is a sincere, honest priest. I am pretty sure he would have given Zion an honest assessment of how they work and what they do.
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Re: Church Financial status
Post by anwi   » Sun Nov 30, 2014 1:27 pm

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lyonheart wrote:I believe the conversation between Duchairn and Trynair early in MTaT will be quite informative as Duchairn touches on their choices, the fact that neither wants a command economy indicates that they have seen it tried and fail miserably somewhere in their memory.


I would say that it's a matter of self-preservation. If the CoGA would switch to a command economy big-time, then both Duchairn and Trynair would loose their (remaining) hold on the levers of powers. Duchairn would be relegated to chief economic planner in a mere supporting role to Magwair - to be ... replaced at Clyntahn's whim. Similarly, Trynair's influence stems from his role as primary contact to secular governments. If those are effectively shoved aside, there's no longer real influence in that Position.
Probably both vicars understand that going down that road would hand over all the reigns to Clyntahn, which they don't want.
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Re: Church Financial status
Post by fallsfromtrees   » Sun Nov 30, 2014 9:43 pm

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Since I haven't had my snippet fix in 13 days now, I have been re-reading the entire series. I found the following in AMF (Nov 893, chapter VI)
He didn’t know the precise value of the gold shipment awaiting his two ships, but he knew it was large. In fact, it was a substantial portion of Desnair’s annual tithe to Mother Church, actually.


I think this answers the question about whether or not they are shipping large quantities of gold around.
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Re: Church Financial status
Post by lyonheart   » Mon Dec 01, 2014 7:44 am

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Hi Churchill,

Welcome to the forums!

Please enjoy your favorite simulated beverage on the simulated forum. ;)

Kudos for some truly excellent analysis; I look forward to more in future posts.

Although I have a few quibbles... ;)

Regarding the population differential, I'd argue that the 72 million people of the EoC, and the loyal roughly hundred million plus of the republic are only outnumbered a little over 4-1 at best by CoGA nations, and given that those on Howard are about to be cut off [around 300 million], the total of the CoGA on Haven after Silkiah and Dohlar have been removed from play [143 million combined] is down to around 353 millions or just over 2-1 odds, hardly insurmountable before considering 80-90% of those 353 million are serfs who might reconsider being hostile to their liberators.

When the MHoGatA are defeated, the CoGA armies will be used up, and the time remaining won't permit much in the way of replacing the lost arms and men let alone training them to any comparable standard, which admittedly isn't much by ICA standards, but if what's left of their officers and NCO's are still trying to cope with the first lessons the ICA taught them, they're going to keep making the same stupid early mistakes that will make it easy for the alliance to kill them all with few casualties, NTM hardly slowing them down as they advance, though as I've mentioned a few times BGV will likely be only a couple of 5days from Port Home and Zion by mid summer. :D

The CoGA's finances are indeed a mess, with direct taxation in the temple lands for the first time and Harchong actually paying 25% tithes, although how much will they attempt to claim is in South Harchong that the church can collect there? :D

I suspect the MHoGatA was supposed to be a good deal for the Go4, ie the Harchong serfs were far cheaper than paying that many free men; perhaps pay was only a half or a third mark per day, which went mainly to the imperial bureaucrats, but over 500-600 days adds up to hundreds of millions the CoGA has to pay out, but that is speculation on my part, since there is no direct textev.

But you're quite correct the CoGA has very little to show for all the wealth its spent and sunk on the Jihad, but the Go4 still has half its second tier properties available, before considering its first tier, NTM the Harchong tithes and the temple land taxes.

While the CoGA is certainly hurting the shock of the MHoGatA being defeated is going to hammer confidence in the CoGA actually winning the war, which will have definite financial and economic effects.

I suspect many vicar families in the eastern temple lands will realise they're too vulnerable and visit family in the western TL's, not helping any CoGA claims when the RSA and the alliance march in and attempts to mediate made.

L


[quote="Churchill"]Delurking

Wars are complicated activities with multiple components affecting actions, capabilities and status. Economics is a significant factor in any war and, ultimately, the war on Safehold is (IMHO) going to be resolved by the church's financial status.

Don't forget - Charis and Co. don't have the manpower to conquer the rest of the world or even a large chunk of it. It's debatable whether they have the ability to do much more than stabilize their southern, south-western and western fronts let alone push through a march to Zion. And there's no way they're going to take the temple via "conventional" means.

The church has been spending far more than their income for years now. They've exhausted their financial reserves. That's why Duchairn had to start selling off church properties and extending his tax base - so they could fund continuing operations through cash flow instead of reserves. But they're still running a deficit. And as other posters have noted, the cash is drying up. [There's lots of textev for this but I'm at work so can't quote.]

The most tax-productive countries on Safehold are the ones they're fighting, along with the Desnairian gold mines. Except that the church may be about to lose access to much of the south, including Despair's gold. Regardless, their income has shrunken drastically and is going to continue to shrink. Expenses haven't. In fact with the need to support such huge armies in the field they've probably increased.

Further the huge drain in funds over the course of the war hasn't been in the form of investment. It's primarily been to fund war operations and fighting capabilities; i.e. capital in the form of ships and weapons and the movement and support of fleets and armies. They haven't even been trying to conquer for tribute / plunder, they've been conquering to destroy. All that money is just gone. Sunk. All they have to show for it are a few inefficient foundries and ship-construction facilities they've built; and they're not going to have the resources, or markets, to make those financially productive.

The church needs to rein in expenses and get out of the red but they can't - not if they're going to keep fighting the war. Consequently they're getting close to the tipping point where they're simply going to run out of money. It's going to happen suddenly and it's possible that even Duchairn won't see it hit - though he undoubtedly knows it's looming.

When that happens the church will drop their bankrupt servants and turtle to survive off their protected core, the Temple Lands. At that point the Temple Lands will probably be the only part of the CoGA alliance with even the vestiges of a viable economy and all they'll be able to do is guard their borders.

That's when rfc will resolve things. There may be coup with Duchairn (or someone else) suing for peace. There may be a high tech strike to decapitate the Go4. Or rfc may surprise us all. Again.

Big brain dump. YMMV of course. And no doubt rfc will have ideas of his own. It will be fun to see it all come crashing down.

Lurk mode back on.[/quote]
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Re: Church Financial status
Post by lyonheart   » Mon Dec 01, 2014 7:54 am

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Hi SYED,

I've suggested before that this is more Nynian's territory, and the SSK may have been counterfeiting the temple mark for some time though it hasn't released the vast amount yet, or perhaps it has.

Simply publicly tallying all the church paper on OWL's broadsheets might be enough for a financial run the Go4 couldn't afford.

Silver that didn't tarnish like antimony might be part of the quick test that causes panic.

Counterfeiting the bank notes are issued against the bullion held is interesting, but I doubt burning them is the best way to prove their authenticity.

Given Nynian's contact framing CoGA printers might be fairly easy.

L


SYED wrote:I always figured at some point, merlin would use counterfieting the church currency. IT would be discovered and shatter the church ability to buy. One church dollar would be penies/cents or less of any other currency, potnetially even worse exchange rate. There is a kind of fake that can only be proven if they burn the notes right, real is one color, fake is another. One burned red, the other blue.
How much of the money is coinage, and what is paper?
Fake coind are coins made out of cheap metals, made to loo like a perfect copy of valuable coins, then overlaid by a thin layer of the valuablemetal it is supposed to be, say silver of gold.
The thing is the church is big in the traditional publishing and printing business. So they could be framed for the fake papers.
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