Technology

Dilandu wrote:And something more about the idea of "civilized, humane" warfare. This idea could pretty easly led to another pretty ugly thing - the "civilized, humane" war would lost it's horrific image.

And this is REALLY bad, because the horrors of war is one of the most important deterrent. With the conceptions of some nice, restricted by rules, "civilized and humane" war, the nations and goverments would easily slip to the idea of military solutions to all problems. The war would be everlasting.

The full-scale, unconventional, total warfare have at least one good side: it's too horrific to start it easly. The horrors of war is a really powerfull voter for peace. If both sides knew, that the war between them would be horrific, destructive, and may easly led to the mutual destruction, they will be much more careful with their politic.

The assumption is that the people involved want to reduce the horrors of war. At least some Islamists are operating on the premise that in order to bring on the end times, they need to make things as horrible as possible. Primarily for their enemies, of course, but not only so.

Zakharra wrote:

Draken wrote:Going back to technology.
What about multi barreled cannons for ships? Similar to design used in French tanks after II world War?
What about creating Zeppelins as bombers and to transport very fast a lot of troops? Similar to fleet of Herculeses and Galexies maintained by US Air Force?

snip

Zeppelins; no. No one on Safehold, no one, has -any- experience in lighter than air flight. It is literally beyond the industrial capacity of any nation to build a zeppelin. It would require advances in metallurgy yet ahead of Charis's current foundries and the development if the internal combustion engine (diesel, gas, kerosene, they would all likely need to use electricity for quick starts to be effective) and there is no way you can make a steam engine small and light enough to put out the required horse/dragonpower and still have the zeppelin be light enough to fly with a cargo. This is after counting in the engine, cooling equipment so it doesn't set the hydrogen gas bags on fire (I don't see any chance they'd be using helium), water tanks, fuel tanks plus the flight controls and other controls, crew quarters and cargo bays and such.

Diesels do not require electricity to be started. As was mentioned earlier (either in this thread or another one) a small air pressure engine can be used to start the engine, since the ignition in a diesel engine is caused by the compression of the fuel/air mixture, not a spark as in an infernal combustion engine. The air pressure starter tank is then refilled off by the now running engine. With the high quality steel that Houseman(sp) is currently producing, a diesel engine is within reach (assuming you can get it past the intendent, which might be a stretch). Although rigid frame zepplins are probably out of the question until you get aluminum production which will almost certainly require electricity (and large amounts of it), semi rigid dirigibles utilizing hot air are possible. At this point we are just waiting for the Safehold equivalent of the Montgolfier brothers, and flight is gonna happen.

Zakharra wrote:Multi-barreled cannon? Like on the second Pirates of the Caribbean? or one massive gun with several barrels on it like a giant revolver? Either way, no. A multi-barreled cannon would be way to heavy for any ship to carry, let alone use. Issues with weight and balancing on the ship, and recoil.

The GAU-8 built into the A10 is a "multi-barrel cannon" as is the 20mm Vulcans used by any number of aircraft and the 25mm chain guns used by Bradley AFVs and US Attack helicopters.

If they're light enough to fly, they're probably light enough to mount of ships -- a la the CIWS mounted on many US and NATO ships.

Charis has more than enough materials technology to build Gatling style Rotary Rifles or Rotary Cannon; for practical purposes the difference being the caliber it's chambered for. Rotary cannon in the 10" to 15" Naval Rifle range with two-thousand pound shells and bagged Cordite propellant probably aren't candidates for expansion to Rotary Cannon. Smaller cannon, in the 5" to 8" naval rifle range using metallic cartridges can certainly be built as Rotary (multi-barrel) Cannon and mounted on ships. Given Armor-piercing Ammo, they'd even be useful against something like a King Harald VII once they got within range, past a KH VII's main guns.

A 5" naval rifle with cordite based metallic cartridges probably out-ranges most of the current NoG ships. In Rotary/Gatling form, they certainly out-gun any NoG ship's rate of fire.

fallsfromtrees wrote:Going back to technology

Diesels do not require electricity to be started. As was mentioned earlier (either in this thread or another one) a small air pressure engine can be used to start the engine, since the ignition in a diesel engine is caused by the compression of the fuel/air mixture, not a spark as in an infernal combustion engine. The air pressure starter tank is then refilled off by the now running engine. With the high quality steel that Houseman(sp) is currently producing, a diesel engine is within reach (assuming you can get it past the intendent, which might be a stretch). Although rigid frame zepplins are probably out of the question until you get aluminum production which will almost certainly require electricity (and large amounts of it), semi rigid dirigibles utilizing hot air are possible. At this point we are just waiting for the Safehold equivalent of the Montgolfier brothers, and flight is gonna happen.

Alright. We have a Copyright alert.
A zeppelin is a rigid or semi-rigid airship manufactured by a particular company, the Luftschiffbau Zeppelin of Germany. But as usual certain trademark names evolve into common use. And Goodyear has a new one.
Also: http://inventors.about.com/od/astartinv ... ship_5.htm
is a nice site about airship evolution.
On powering: I remember a Anime that had a light wooden frame and was propelled by several air-navy personnel turning a long crank.
Much like the one discribed: April, YOG 896 In Dohlar, Lieutenant Dynnys Zhwaigair invents the crankshaft-powered coastal ship. That's the thing about fiction. Imagination bends knowledge ever so slightly.
Now can the weather on safehold be worked with? Certain areas seem prone to bad weather more than others. But is it consistently foul worldwide?

Weird Harold wrote:

Zakharra wrote:Multi-barreled cannon? Like on the second Pirates of the Caribbean? or one massive gun with several barrels on it like a giant revolver? Either way, no. A multi-barreled cannon would be way to heavy for any ship to carry, let alone use. Issues with weight and balancing on the ship, and recoil.

The GAU-8 built into the A10 is a "multi-barrel cannon" as is the 20mm Vulcans used by any number of aircraft and the 25mm chain guns used by Bradley AFVs and US Attack helicopters.

If they're light enough to fly, they're probably light enough to mount of ships -- a la the CIWS mounted on many US and NATO ships.

Charis has more than enough materials technology to build Gatling style Rotary Rifles or Rotary Cannon; for practical purposes the difference being the caliber it's chambered for. Rotary cannon in the 10" to 15" Naval Rifle range with two-thousand pound shells and bagged Cordite propellant probably aren't candidates for expansion to Rotary Cannon. Smaller cannon, in the 5" to 8" naval rifle range using metallic cartridges can certainly be built as Rotary (multi-barrel) Cannon and mounted on ships. Given Armor-piercing Ammo, they'd even be useful against something like a King Harald VII once they got within range, past a KH VII's main guns.

A 5" naval rifle with cordite based metallic cartridges probably out-ranges most of the current NoG ships. In Rotary/Gatling form, they certainly out-gun any NoG ship's rate of fire.

Sure, Charis could very probably come up with a multi-barreled cannon, or armored siege wagon, or pneumatic mechanical laborer especially with Merlin's and Owl's help, but why? With Owl to feed them designs of pretty much anything that they could want you need to ask two questions,
1. Is it a big enough improvement over what is currently in use?
2. Is it worth the time and expense to research and manufacture it before something better is available?
The rate of technological advancement in Charis is astounding from the point of view of Earth advancement, going from pikes and ram armed galleys to breach loading rifles and ironclads in the course of 8 years. Cayleb and Merlin have shown that they are willing to produce systems that will be obsolete very quickly for the short term advantage it gives them like the muzzle loading rifles. They accepted the limitation of a muzzle loader because they knew they could convert them to breach loading at a later date and because they gave a significant advantage over the rifles currently in use in rate of fire, range and accuracy.
With the growth of the Inner Circle, any new technology will be vetted, if not introduced, by Owl and Merlin not only for design flaws but to review if there is some advancement that can be reached that will make the new device obsolete before it has paid for itself. There is nothing wrong with new devices that will increase the capabilities of Charis but better is the enemy of the good.

TN4994 wrote:snip
Now can the weather on safehold be worked with? Certain areas seem prone to bad weather more than others. But is it consistently foul worldwide?

We have textev that the weather in Charis is nice most of the year, and also in Corisande except during huricane season. I suspect that the weather patterns are going to be similar to those of Earth, some places you don't want to even think about it, other places it'll be fine.

MPCatchup wrote:

Zakharra wrote:Multi-barreled cannon? Like on the second Pirates of the Caribbean? or one massive gun with several barrels on it like a giant revolver? Either way, no. A multi-barreled cannon would be way to heavy for any ship to carry, let alone use. Issues with weight and balancing on the ship, and recoil.

Weird Harold wrote:
The GAU-8 built into the A10 is a "multi-barrel cannon" as is the 20mm Vulcans used by any number of aircraft and the 25mm chain guns used by Bradley AFVs and US Attack helicopters.

If they're light enough to fly, they're probably light enough to mount of ships -- a la the CIWS mounted on many US and NATO ships.

Charis has more than enough materials technology to build Gatling style Rotary Rifles or Rotary Cannon; for practical purposes the difference being the caliber it's chambered for. Rotary cannon in the 10" to 15" Naval Rifle range with two-thousand pound shells and bagged Cordite propellant probably aren't candidates for expansion to Rotary Cannon. Smaller cannon, in the 5" to 8" naval rifle range using metallic cartridges can certainly be built as Rotary (multi-barrel) Cannon and mounted on ships. Given Armor-piercing Ammo, they'd even be useful against something like a King Harald VII once they got within range, past a KH VII's main guns.

A 5" naval rifle with cordite based metallic cartridges probably out-ranges most of the current NoG ships. In Rotary/Gatling form, they certainly out-gun any NoG ship's rate of fire.

Sure, Charis could very probably come up with a multi-barreled cannon, or armored siege wagon, or pneumatic mechanical laborer especially with Merlin's and Owl's help, but why? With Owl to feed them designs of pretty much anything that they could want you need to ask two questions,
1. Is it a big enough improvement over what is currently in use?
2. Is it worth the time and expense to research and manufacture it before something better is available?
The rate of technological advancement in Charis is astounding from the point of view of Earth advancement, going from pikes and ram armed galleys to breach loading rifles and ironclads in the course of 8 years. Cayleb and Merlin have shown that they are willing to produce systems that will be obsolete very quickly for the short term advantage it gives them like the muzzle loading rifles. They accepted the limitation of a muzzle loader because they knew they could convert them to breach loading at a later date and because they gave a significant advantage over the rifles currently in use in rate of fire, range and accuracy.
With the growth of the Inner Circle, any new technology will be vetted, if not introduced, by Owl and Merlin not only for design flaws but to review if there is some advancement that can be reached that will make the new device obsolete before it has paid for itself. There is nothing wrong with new devices that will increase the capabilities of Charis but better is the enemy of the good.

Ala Arthur Clarke's story Superiority. There is in fact no need at this time to build a Gatling naval gun. With the advent of the King Haarald's, everything naval on Safehold is so outclassed that sea battles will be very short and one sided. Reducing port cities will take longer, but the existing guns will take care of that, and once the shipyards are destroyed, it won't be possible to build anything that could challenge them. Besides whichm except for Harchong, the major naval powers are about to be taken out of the war - Desnair and Dohlar. With Thirsk gone from the CoGA side, there will be very little naval innovation forthcoming.

MPCatchup wrote:Sure, Charis could very probably come up with a multi-barreled cannon, or armored siege wagon, or pneumatic mechanical laborer especially with Merlin's and Owl's help, but why? With Owl to feed them designs of pretty much anything that they could want you need to ask two questions,
1. Is it a big enough improvement over what is currently in use?

Currently, the armament for repelling boarders or close in attackers -- eg a swarm of screw-galleys -- is riflemen and/or muzzle-loading swivel guns.

A rotary cannon of .50 caliber or bigger would eliminate such "close-in" threats before they got close in. In larger, 4" or 5", with smokeless or "brown powder" and HEAP (High Explosive Armor Piercing) rounds, it would enable almost any ship to deal with NoG ironclads (when they get some.)

Hand cranked, hydraulic/pneumatic, or steam drive should make 600-1200 rounds per minute possible. It would take 50-100 riflemen with bolt action rifles to math the rate of fire and you still wouldn't match the weight of lead a rotary cannon could theoretically put out except at the very smallest caliber.

Rotary rifles or rotary cannon would be a big improvement for naval actions at medium to short ranges -- like repelling boarders or boarding actions -- over lining the rails and rigging with riflemen.

I'm not convinced that rotary rifles or rotary cannon would be as useful in land warfare except for defensive positions -- not enough versatility to warrant production of land version, IMHO. For land warfare, Charis needs something select fire in a mid-range (attack rifle) round or full power (battle rifle) round -- BAR, or AK-derivative.

FallFromTrees wrote:Ala Arthur Clarke's story Superiority. There is in fact no need at this time to build a Gatling naval gun.

I disagree: there is a clear need for a weapon that will even the numbers for smaller combatants -- and possibly for merchant ships. AFAIK, the KH VIIs rely on defeating enemies at range and have no better close-in defense that unarmored galleons. Even a Civil War Era, 45-70 caliber Gatling gun would increase anti-piracy capability by at least an order of magnitude.

=2014/11/29=

True

http://forums.davidweber.net/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=554&hilit=diesel&start=228

R
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fallsfromtrees wrote:Going back to technology

Diesels do not require electricity to be started.
SNIP

Weird Harold wrote:

MPCatchup wrote:Sure, Charis could very probably come up with a multi-barreled cannon, or armored siege wagon, or pneumatic mechanical laborer especially with Merlin's and Owl's help, but why? With Owl to feed them designs of pretty much anything that they could want you need to ask two questions,
1. Is it a big enough improvement over what is currently in use?

Currently, the armament for repelling boarders or close in attackers -- eg a swarm of screw-galleys -- is riflemen and/or muzzle-loading swivel guns.

A rotary cannon of .50 caliber or bigger would eliminate such "close-in" threats before they got close in. In larger, 4" or 5", with smokeless or "brown powder" and HEAP (High Explosive Armor Piercing) rounds, it would enable almost any ship to deal with NoG ironclads (when they get some.)

Hand cranked, hydraulic/pneumatic, or steam drive should make 600-1200 rounds per minute possible. It would take 50-100 riflemen with bolt action rifles to math the rate of fire and you still wouldn't match the weight of lead a rotary cannon could theoretically put out except at the very smallest caliber.

Rotary rifles or rotary cannon would be a big improvement for naval actions at medium to short ranges -- like repelling boarders or boarding actions -- over lining the rails and rigging with riflemen.

I'm not convinced that rotary rifles or rotary cannon would be as useful in land warfare except for defensive positions -- not enough versatility to warrant production of land version, IMHO. For land warfare, Charis needs something select fire in a mid-range (attack rifle) round or full power (battle rifle) round -- BAR, or AK-derivative.

Still don't think it will happen.

Lazalarlives wrote:Good question, but I think you may have missed some of the textev answers already in the books.
We've already seen the start of the petroleum/oil industry, guncotton is on its way, and the gatling is a possibility.
That said, the gatling will probably be bypassed in favor of a sturdier, more mobile version of automatic weapon like the BAR. The move to magazine-fed brass cartridge weapons makes this very likely.

With magazine fed weapons belt fed are not far behind so say hello to Ma Deuce or a close facsimile. That takes care of any boarding attempts. Black powder or even brown powder just means more maintenance.
As to getting swarmed by screw galleys, or any other type of ship a few things.
The screws are powered by humans, granted humans pedaling can go for a long time but not at maximum output. So just sail/steam away and keep the range open.
Charis in the form of Cayleb and the Inner Circle know about the screw galleys.
The ICN will have breech loading cannon (already developed and tested) with armor piercing shells (ditto) when they do finally have to face the screw galleys.
The ICN gunnery is such that now if an enemy ship gets close its getting hit and hit hard.
So I just think it would be a lot of effort to develop a new type of weapon system to do something that current or the next evolution of current weapons can already do.