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The (not so) welcome Archangels

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Re: The (not so) welcome Archangels
Post by fallsfromtrees   » Sat Nov 29, 2014 11:55 pm

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SWM wrote:
Annachie wrote:Who says an awaking arch angel would be upset at Clyntahn(sp?)?

Said angel is more likely to say how disapointed he is, how the church has to be more vigilant agains the blandishments of Shan-Wei, and then deliver a short, sharp, lesson on geography.

Well, one thing he would be upset over is the fact that the current Church of God Awaiting is not been following the instructions written by the Archangels, and has not for centuries. The entire governance of the Inquisition has been changed radically from what was intended.

QAnd if the arch angel in question is Schueler, he is going to be seriously pissed off at the fact that his descendents have been hounded to death by Clyntahn.
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The only problem with quotes on the internet is that you can't authenticate them -- Abraham Lincoln
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Re: The (not so) welcome Archangels
Post by n7axw   » Sun Nov 30, 2014 12:00 am

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Hi Lyonheart,

Here is the quote that I was remembering when I made my previous post. It happens in the midst of Merlin's ruimination upon Father Paityr's revelation...

"The Archangels will return, he thought. What the hell does that mean? Were those lunatics crazy enough to put a bunch of Archangels into cryo under there? Were they actually willing to trust the cryo systems to keep them going that long? And even if they were, could the systems stand up that many years? So far as he knew, no one had ever used the cryo suspension systems for a period greater than thirty or forty years. Theorectically, they were supposed to be good for up to a century and a half. But nine centuries?"

As you can see, I didn't remember the quote quite right, but I did get the main sense of it in my previous post.

Do you have something additional that would add to or qualify this information.

Don
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: The (not so) welcome Archangels
Post by TN4994   » Sun Nov 30, 2014 1:32 am

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I think the first question a revived Archangel of Langhorne's group would ask after such a long sleep would be: "Where the Shan-wei is my coffee?" :lol: :lol:
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Re: The (not so) welcome Archangels
Post by Iorwerth   » Sun Nov 30, 2014 6:56 am

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n7axw wrote:
SCLibrarian wrote:I don't have the earlier books in the series in hand (I cataloged them for my church library, and am just too lazy to drive down tonight to get them), but I'm pretty sure I remember Merlin, upon learning of the promise of a millennial visitation by the archangels, musing that 1000 years was too long for svuccessful cryogenics. I believe he thought that a few hundred years was the upper limit.
Am I mistaken? :?:


Actually, it was more like 50 years or so which had been the upper limit before. Or, restated a bit, that was about as long as it had been previously tried which would mean that anything beyond that would be uncharted territory.

One other comment here: Although the idea is unlikely, a PICA built after the arrival of Safehold cannot be ruled out on the basis of anything we currently know. Owl built a PICA on the basis of existing resources from Nimue's cave. One would think that the command crew would have had AIs and resourses superior to anything available in the cave.

Don


Don

I went hunting for the authors words around this from the Langthorne Mistake thread it's around the 8/9 August if anyone wants to go look up the post, it's quite long. Below is an edited excerpt of what David wrote:
"The mission planners were pretty darned fanatical about what was and what was not to be permitted on the surface of Safehold for the colonists in general. They had made a conscious decision at an early point that PICAs and virtual reality-bound AIs would not be part of that mix. ...

The command crew (under the original plan) were to be given two options once the colony was fully up and running. Option A would be to have their own memories adjusted to delete any memory of high technology and then to join the rest of the colony population. Option B would be to retain their memories, but in that case they were supposed to live in isolated communities, with little or no contact with the rest of Safehold. This, in fact, is why Zion was located in such a relatively inhospitable surroundings and why the Alexandria Enclave was located on what equated to Antarctica. The youngest of the command crew could be expected to live to a point well past the end of the "complete ban on technology" period by the original mission planners, and if they chose to remain in one of the very small "high-tech" enclaves, ... but they were supposed to retain the technological "seed corn" for the descendents of the other colonists once the initial hiding. Was over.

Because of that, there was no need for any PICAs to "protect against barbarism." There were always supposed to be a minimum of two enclaves which would retain that carefully hidden technology and be the librarians/caretakers for humanity's technological past. ... The last thing Langhorne wanted to add to his baggage was an emancipated PICA which might reject his vision for what was needed to preserve humanity ... Another possible fear was that a PICA or PICAs might see the opportunity to set up as the immortal, divine rulers of an enslaved humanity. ...

Langhorne probably could have requested that a PICA or PICAs be assigned to the command crew. He didn't want one. None of the original command crew — with the exception of the Peis and their small handful of fellow conspirators — wanted PICAs, to be honest. ...
There are reasons beyond those I've listed here why the command crew never contemplated a "permanent PICA presence" to keep Langhorne's master plan on track. Eventually, you guys will find out what those other reasons were. At the moment, you're just going to have to take my word for it that those reasons actually made sense given the command crew's plans, expectations, and fears.

There's no question that leaving a cadre of PICA "Archangels" to control the situation would have been a masterstroke in many ways. As I say, there's a reason it didn't happen, and you're just going to have to trust me when I tell you that "it will all make sense in the end." The original mission planners included no PICAs in their plans for the reasons I've listed above, and the options available to Langhorne and his immediate successors began and proceeded from the technology initially assigned to the colony by those planners."

This does not absolutely say no more PiCAs but the last sentence I quoted
"The original mission planners included no PICAs in their plans for the reasons I've listed above, and the options available to Langhorne and his immediate successors began and proceeded from the technology initially assigned to the colony by those planners."

indicates to me that whatever wakes under the temple is unlikely to be a PICA. I would be interested in other thoughts?

Cofion
Iorwerth
--------------------
yma o hyd

Cymru am byth
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Re: The (not so) welcome Archangels
Post by fallsfromtrees   » Sun Nov 30, 2014 12:59 pm

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Iorwerth wrote:
SCLibrarian wrote:I don't have the earlier books in the series in hand (I cataloged them for my church library, and am just too lazy to drive down tonight to get them), but I'm pretty sure I remember Merlin, upon learning of the promise of a millennial visitation by the archangels, musing that 1000 years was too long for svuccessful cryogenics. I believe he thought that a few hundred years was the upper limit.
Am I mistaken? :?:
n7axw wrote:
Actually, it was more like 50 years or so which had been the upper limit before. Or, restated a bit, that was about as long as it had been previously tried which would mean that anything beyond that would be uncharted territory.

One other comment here: Although the idea is unlikely, a PICA built after the arrival of Safehold cannot be ruled out on the basis of anything we currently know. Owl built a PICA on the basis of existing resources from Nimue's cave. One would think that the command crew would have had AIs and resourses superior to anything available in the cave.

Don


Don

I went hunting for the authors words around this from the Langthorne Mistake thread it's around the 8/9 August if anyone wants to go look up the post, it's quite long. Below is an edited excerpt of what David wrote:
"The mission planners were pretty darned fanatical about what was and what was not to be permitted on the surface of Safehold for the colonists in general. They had made a conscious decision at an early point that PICAs and virtual reality-bound AIs would not be part of that mix. ...

The command crew (under the original plan) were to be given two options once the colony was fully up and running. Option A would be to have their own memories adjusted to delete any memory of high technology and then to join the rest of the colony population. Option B would be to retain their memories, but in that case they were supposed to live in isolated communities, with little or no contact with the rest of Safehold. This, in fact, is why Zion was located in such a relatively inhospitable surroundings and why the Alexandria Enclave was located on what equated to Antarctica. The youngest of the command crew could be expected to live to a point well past the end of the "complete ban on technology" period by the original mission planners, and if they chose to remain in one of the very small "high-tech" enclaves, ... but they were supposed to retain the technological "seed corn" for the descendents of the other colonists once the initial hiding. Was over.

Because of that, there was no need for any PICAs to "protect against barbarism." There were always supposed to be a minimum of two enclaves which would retain that carefully hidden technology and be the librarians/caretakers for humanity's technological past. ... The last thing Langhorne wanted to add to his baggage was an emancipated PICA which might reject his vision for what was needed to preserve humanity ... Another possible fear was that a PICA or PICAs might see the opportunity to set up as the immortal, divine rulers of an enslaved humanity. ...

Langhorne probably could have requested that a PICA or PICAs be assigned to the command crew. He didn't want one. None of the original command crew — with the exception of the Peis and their small handful of fellow conspirators — wanted PICAs, to be honest. ...
There are reasons beyond those I've listed here why the command crew never contemplated a "permanent PICA presence" to keep Langhorne's master plan on track. Eventually, you guys will find out what those other reasons were. At the moment, you're just going to have to take my word for it that those reasons actually made sense given the command crew's plans, expectations, and fears.

There's no question that leaving a cadre of PICA "Archangels" to control the situation would have been a masterstroke in many ways. As I say, there's a reason it didn't happen, and you're just going to have to trust me when I tell you that "it will all make sense in the end." The original mission planners included no PICAs in their plans for the reasons I've listed above, and the options available to Langhorne and his immediate successors began and proceeded from the technology initially assigned to the colony by those planners."

This does not absolutely say no more PiCAs but the last sentence I quoted
"The original mission planners included no PICAs in their plans for the reasons I've listed above, and the options available to Langhorne and his immediate successors began and proceeded from the technology initially assigned to the colony by those planners."

indicates to me that whatever wakes under the temple is unlikely to be a PICA. I would be interested in other thoughts?

Cofion
Iorwerth

That's pretty definitive. The tech available to the command crew did include cryo, but as Merlin mused. that's probably not valid for 1000 years, and if they were going to wake up every 100 years to do a reset, whay didn't they correct the direction of the church when it started to go off the rails.
========================

The only problem with quotes on the internet is that you can't authenticate them -- Abraham Lincoln
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Re: The (not so) welcome Archangels
Post by n7axw   » Sun Nov 30, 2014 1:21 pm

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I was aware of that post and frankly I don't think there are any additional PICAs either.

But if you consider all the possibilities, a good deal of water went under the bridge between Pei Kauyung's little surprise and the last of the Archangels. It wouldn't be the first time that someone betrayed the principles they publically professed.

So however remote the possibility might be, the notion of a PICA built after arrival on Safehold can't be completely ruled out.

Don
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: The (not so) welcome Archangels
Post by Iorwerth   » Sun Nov 30, 2014 3:17 pm

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Don

I think that a PICA is unlikely reading the textev and this post but I also agree that it is not completely ruled out by this post. David does point to the existing tech which to me points to suspended animation. This however is only good for a couple of hundred years deep sleep according to Merlin's ruminations. I wonder whether the survivng command crew, after the "pocket nuke", had the skills either to mock up a new PICA or find some work around for the suspended animation.

As others have written it does not appear that there are a series of long sleeps or there might have been 'Angel' activity recorded every hundred years or so? The thought of trying to approach light speed with suspended animation and use time dilation to return to Safehold a hundred subjective but 1000 actual years later appears both fanciful and very very counter productive as regards hiding from the Gbaba. An AI option seems unlikely too as an AI could have been awake throughout and interfering on a regular basis and there is no evidence of this.

I cannot think of a better option than a built from scratch PiCA or an improved suspended animation. Neither option seems likely but is either hinted out in the prologue of OAR in any hits as to the skills of the command crew? Emotionally I prefer the suspended animation option as I want Merlin/Nimue to be different (cannot be unique if there are two) but I cannot see an easy way for the command crew to so significantly improve deep sleep.
Cofion
Iorwerth
--------------------
yma o hyd

Cymru am byth
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Re: The (not so) welcome Archangels
Post by PalmerSperry   » Sun Nov 30, 2014 3:24 pm

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Iorwerth wrote:An AI option seems unlikely too as an AI could have been awake throughout and interfering on a regular basis and there is no evidence of this.


Not necessarily. There was, after all, no evidence supporting the existence of OWL prior to Merlin's appearance. AFAIK it's unknown if AIs have to be switched on and running the entire time.

It's the 1000 years thing I wonder about. It's clearly too long an interval if you're hoping to keep things on track - even without Merlin things where clearly going off the rails already.
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Re: The (not so) welcome Archangels
Post by Michael Everett   » Sun Nov 30, 2014 4:29 pm

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...cloning?

Hear me out.

It wouldn't be beyond the realms of possibility for them to pull a variation of Anhu's gambit (Mutineer's Moon) and clone their own bodies from stored DNA. Have them upload their minds into VR and put them on pause while the systems prepare the new bodies (with the required NEAT Implants) and then re-download.

Why wait a thousand years? Well, it would help in persuading the peasants that the Angels had made a great sacrifice in leaving Heaven in order to check on things.

I know that there are holes in this big enough to pilot Dahak through, but I can't rule out the possibility yet...
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But I try nonetheless, And even do my own artwork.

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Re: The (not so) welcome Archangels
Post by n7axw   » Sun Nov 30, 2014 5:06 pm

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I think that the least improbable option would be an AI or perhaps a personality uploaded like Nahrman into virtual reality set up to awaken at a predetermined time and set to "appear" probably in Zion.

Give that personality control of the OBS and what and interestng plot line to get it turned off before it started to dish out punishment...

Don
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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