Sphinx and Gryphon class SD

fallsfromtrees wrote:As was pointed out earlier, much of the bribery was in the form of blackmail, extortion, or the trading of favors, rather than actual money per se.

kzt wrote:So you are going to try to blackmail or extort a few thousand of the richest and well connected people in the entire SL? Really? You think this will end well?

Weird Harold wrote:
North Hollow managed to control a majority of the SKM House of Lords and a significant percentage of the House of Commons with his secret files. Why shouldn't the Solarian League have one or more equivalents?

The point is that textev says the Mandarins made sure that the vote came out the way they wanted:

A Rising Thunder wrote:“The vote is eight thousand seven hundred and twelve in favor, two thousand nine hundred and three opposed. The motion is carried.”

A roar went up, and Hadley’s jaw clenched. Not in surprise, but in anger. The only surprise was that almost a quarter of the Assembly had voted against the motion. That was a dangerous sign for the Mandarins, given the massive effort they’d mounted to pass the motion in the first place. It suggested all sorts of unpleasant things, yet that was for the future. For now …

As far as North Hollow controlling the House of Lords and the Commons in the SKM goes, remember that both the House of Lords and the Commons were government bodies that actually had power.

The text makes it clear that the Solarian League Assembly is a debating society with practically no real power to effect change or deal with events that affect the League, where members put in the minimal amount of time and effort (most of the time, they don't even have a quorum present when the Assembly is in session) to fill a line on their resume, so they can go home and get a position in their system government with real power.

The Mandarins are paying attention to the Assembly (the vote 'buying') so they can cover their ass if what they try goes south on them.

fallsfromtrees wrote:I don't believe that there was much in the way of textev that these are the among the richest people in the entire SL. The richest people in the SL are too busy handling their money to be bothered with an irrelevant entity like the Assembly - they hire people to do that. While most of the Assembly members are well connected, the vast majority were people who were shuffled out of the way because they couldn't do any harm stuck in the Assembly.

Consider the Roman Imperial Senate.
What exactly were it's powers?
Well, about nothing. The Emperor made all the decisions, sometimes the Senate was asked to rubber stamp them, sometimes not.

So, since it was powerless it comprised of storekeepers and recent freedmen, right?
No, it was comprised of the rich and connected looking for prestige and increased social standing.

kzt wrote:

fallsfromtrees wrote:So you are going to try to blackmail or extort a few thousand of the richest and well connected people in the entire SL? Really? You think this will end well?

I don't believe that there was much in the way of textev that these are the among the richest people in the entire SL. The richest people in the SL are too busy handling their money to be bothered with an irrelevant entity like the Assembly - they hire people to do that. While most of the Assembly members are well connected, the vast majority were people who were shuffled out of the way because they couldn't do any harm stuck in the Assembly.

I think you have it, fallsfromtrees (great name, BTW). And recall, most of the transtellars (especailly those involved in shipping) have no great love for the SEM anyways and are likely to instruct those delegates that they have under their economic thumb not to do Manticore any favors.

And considering how close Beowulf is to Manticore, and what a PITA they have been to 'reasonable" businessmen in the SL (reasonable about things such as genetic slavery and political and economic oppression in the Verge), it's not too surprising that the 'Wulfers didn't get much sympathy. From ART, IIRC, one system wasn't talking to Hadley because Beowulf had more delegates that they did....

And some, indeed many, of those Assembly folks may truly feel that Beowulf has "betrayed" the SL by not permitting the SLN to transit the wormhole--even if it was the dumbest idea since Pickett's Charge--and are acting on their outrage (misplaced outrage is not unknown in this time, too).

kzt wrote:

fallsfromtrees wrote:I don't believe that there was much in the way of textev that these are the among the richest people in the entire SL. The richest people in the SL are too busy handling their money to be bothered with an irrelevant entity like the Assembly - they hire people to do that. While most of the Assembly members are well connected, the vast majority were people who were shuffled out of the way because they couldn't do any harm stuck in the Assembly.

Consider the Roman Imperial Senate.
What exactly were it's powers?
Well, about nothing. The Emperor made all the decisions, sometimes the Senate was asked to rubber stamp them, sometimes not.

So, since it was powerless it comprised of storekeepers and recent freedmen, right?
No, it was comprised of the rich and connected looking for prestige and increased social standing.

Also, the Senate provided the administrators for all of the major provinces (Provence, Greece, Africa, Egypt, Asia, Hispania) taken in hand prior to the Empires's existence. It was in order to keep his position as a military-political governor (and its income) in the provinces that led Ceasar to cross the Rubicon in the first place.

Later, the Empire deprived the Senate of those perquisites by re-organizing the administrative districts; but they generally liked to use "client kings" as tax collectors, as it was considerably less expensive (and less dangerous) than sending troops with ambitious generals.

Rob

Better comparison to SL assembly would be Polish King in XVII century, he could do one thing, order time when Sejm was gathering. Everything else was in hands of Sejm.
Senate in Rome was body which was helping Caesar with governing the country.

kzt wrote:

n7axw wrote:One should be careful about assuming that the delegates were truly representing their home worlds. Due to the way the League constitution was set up, most worlds aren't taking the assembly very seriously and it tends more toward being a debating society than a body that does serious legislating. The consequence of that is that with the exception of Beowulf and perhaps a few others, the delegates are political hacks or simply people who were given their present positions as a way of getting them out of the way of serious business at home. Dead enders, so to speak.

Also one shouldn't assume that the public opinion that the Mandrains are playing to and trying to shape in Old Chicago on earth truly represents the opinion of the whole League. One of the things that will probably be important in the League coming apart will be when other core worls start discovering that Old Chicago not only doesn't represent its views, but is also bad for business.

Don

Yup. That what I meant when I asked who was bribing who and why. Where is the money coming from to buy that many rich people?

Didn't the author say in the text somewhere that Old Man Kalokainos had around a third or so of the Assembly in his pocket? And Omosuppe Quartermain was one of his employees?

In addition, there was all the pressure from the big transtellers on Quartermain and McCartney, which was what made them so enthusiastic over invading Beowulf--regardless of what justification was used.

There are a lot of transtellers--even if each one limited itself to a modest stipend to delegates on the systems they live on/do business with, there is plenty of cash for bribery. Solarian delegates getting paid off from all the big guys doing business on Earth? They won't have to charge more than 5 credits per vote, they will be getting paid by so many companies. . . .

It was also in the text somewhere--I think the pov was Crawford--that the delegates at the Assembly generally take those positions specifically so they can line up the grublines before they head back to their home systems, where they actually get to have some real power, instead of just prestige.

Rob

Draken wrote:Better comparison to SL assembly would be Polish King in XVII century, he could do one thing, order time when Sejm was gathering. Everything else was in hands of Sejm.
Senate in Rome was body which was helping Caesar with governing the country.

The Senate in Rome had differing powers and abilities at different times. However, it was at all times composed of the heads of the local landowning aristocracy. Before the office of "emperor of the west" became vacant, the capitol was removed twice--first to Ravenna, then to Constantinople--specifically so the Senate couldn't interfere as much with imperial politics. The Senate's concern was solely in the prosperity of their own pockets, not the well-being of the Empire.

Rob