GOD EXISTS

Daryl wrote:Reminds me of the dyslexic atheist. Didn't believe in dogs.

What about the insomniac dyslexic agnostic who lies awake at night wondering whether or not there is a dog.

Michael Everett wrote:

cthia wrote:Everybody wants to move religion. Or discussions about religion. The Pilgrims fled England and religious persecution in search of lands in which they could worship as they please.

Actually, the Pilgrims fled the UK because they were too uptight and stick-in-the-@$$ to fit in with the majority, so they headed to the New World to set up a commune which effectively failed.
Had the Pilgrims not been aided by the natives and follow-on shiploads of immigrants, America would still be in a state of low-level war between the various tribes.
Or invaded by other countries seeking to grab the resources.

Actually, the Pilgrims fled to the Netherlands first, which offered freedom to worship as they pleased. It was only as their children started to adopt the ways and language of their Dutch neighbors that they wanted to flee to the New World.

And on that subject. Originally the colony was supposed to join the Jamestown colony in Virginia. The Pilgrims hijacked the colony ship and forced it to land at Plymouth, and the only reason for the Mayflower Compact was to quell the disquiet of the other non-Pilgrim colonists. I will concede that the majority of the intolerance that grew up later in the New England area was due to the later addition of the Puritans who were even more uptight PITAs. (I can add that, as I have an ancestor who was a part of that group who arrived in 1630 in Boston).

TN4994 wrote:To truly understand the books, aquire photoglyphs of the original texts and translate. Do not take it verbatim that the English text is accurate. The term lucifer is latin and has nothing to do with the tempter of wants and needs. As those who use the phrase "Jesus Christ, the Messiah", do not know of their error in pronunciation or the redundancy of the statement.

I must disagree. I value your thoughtful input and I thank you. But I must respectfully disagree, on the point of Lucifer, though I agree that there might be inconsistencies in English translations. Perhaps in many translations. But GOD's word is robust and will stand and endure the test of all times.

http://www.chick.com/ask/articles/lucifer.asp

cthia wrote:

TN4994 wrote:To truly understand the books, aquire photoglyphs of the original texts and translate. Do not take it verbatim that the English text is accurate. The term lucifer is latin and has nothing to do with the tempter of wants and needs. As those who use the phrase "Jesus Christ, the Messiah", do not know of their error in pronunciation or the redundancy of the statement.

I must disagree. I value your thoughtful input and I thank you. But I must respectfully disagree, on the point of Lucifer, though I agree that there might be inconsistencies in English translations. Perhaps in many translations. But GOD's word is robust and will stand and endure the test of all times.

http://www.chick.com/ask/articles/lucifer.asp

Read the link. Thoroughly disagree.
Get thee to a Greek Orthodox Prelate or any other Orthodox ministry. Then we have the Eastern Right Catholics, Indian Catholics (India, who follow the teachings of Thomas the Apostle, not Paul). Morningstar is mentioned only once as an honorific (and is sarcastically being used) towards a Babylonian King in OT. In the Latin Vulgate it is scribed in lower case.
Somewhere, somehow it wasn't translated into English. Doesn't matter. It can be applied to Christ as the New Dawn. Personally I like to believe we are meant to play nice with one another, and that certain holy-people were sent to show us the way. The acronym YHWH to Roman-Latin, after the input of Celtic-Gaul idioms, becomes JHVVH, which can be pronounced Jeh-Hv-Vh or Jehovah. But in Old Macedonian the symbols for YHWH are pronounced Auh-wuh. Very close to the Muslim Allah. In several ancient languages the symbols mean: Giver of life and death, Creator of the Cosmos (Universe).

*Hutch hypers in*

And the preceding 5 pages is why I don't get involved in these discussions...because there is a fundamental difference in worldview.

For those like Cthia and some of the other posters with him, there is NO DOUBT God exists, that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and lived on Earth, and that the Bible they read (I notice cthia quotes the KJV) is the absolute, unvarished TRUTH. And to him and the rest those are indisputable facts.

For folks like me (callus Humanists if you must fit us in a category), we know there is much we don't know, but we know there is much we DO know, and moreover we know how to find out about stuff. So while God (He/She/It/They may exist, we look for evidence to confirm that or possibly cast certain things into doubt (i.e., age of the earth, worldwide flood).

And true believers can't do that. Because they KNOW that the Bible is FACT and NOTHING can disagree with it.

This doesn't mean that they are bad people--some atheists of my acquintance are PITA's as much as any Christian--but most Christians are good folks and I get along quite well as an Agnostic in the middle of the Bible Belt.

But the fundamental dicotomy exists. Probably always will.

Oh, and Cthia:

cthia wrote:I must disagree. I value your thoughtful input and I thank you. But I must respectfully disagree, on the point of Lucifer, though I agree that there might be inconsistencies in English translations. Perhaps in many translations. But GOD's word is robust and will stand and endure the test of all times.

http://www.chick.com/ask/articles/lucifer.asp

Referencing that Dungeons and Dragons Condemming, rock Music Hating, Anti-Roman Catholic purveyor of bad art is not going to convince me anytime soon.

Oh, one more thing. A religion sub-forum? How many messages in this Forum have been about religion? Hint: Not many.

*Hutch hypers out*

Annachie wrote:But I leave you this thought. What kind and loving God would deny his chosen people the glory that is bacon?

That is from Deuteronomy 14, which is in the Old Testament. Many things are different in the New Testament.

Mark 7:14-23King James Version (KJV)

14 And when he had called all the people unto him, he said unto them, Hearken unto me every one of you, and understand:

15 There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man.

16 If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.

17 And when he was entered into the house from the people, his disciples asked him concerning the parable.

18 And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him;

19 Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats?

20 And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man.

21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,

22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:

23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

God completely removed the restrictions of what we eat.


Another difference is that we are all still born in sin but we can no longer claim an inherent weakness of flesh associated with being descendants of Adam. Some churches teach that once Jesus died for our sins in the New Testament, we ceased being descendants of Adam and became descendants of Jesus. As a result we can no longer claim a weakness of the flesh, because GOD removed the innate propensity to sin, as promised to us in

Ezekiel 36:25-30King James Version (KJV)

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

29 I will also save you from all your uncleannesses: and I will call for the corn, and will increase it, and lay no famine upon you.

30 And I will multiply the fruit of the tree, and the increase of the field, that ye shall receive no more reproach of famine among the heathen.

We no longer have to give any sacrifice. Mankind became so sinful that nothing but the blood of Jesus will do.

I asked for evidence, but have not seen any. Posts that purport to present that evidence fall into two categories:

I can't believe the universe could have developed to its current state through blind natural processes, so that proves that it was created by God.

I'll answer that as Roger Zelazny did:

Postulating infinity, all else follows as a matter of course.

Meaning that, given sufficient scope and time, any event having a non-zero probability is not only possible, but inevitable. Hundreds of billions of galaxies containing hundreds of billions of stars each times several billion years means that even the least probable things have happened over and over again. The pattern for a self-replicating molecule only has to happen once to start a process that can lead to life.

Extensive quotes from a certain collection of Bronze Age fairy tales.

That makes the fatal assumption that the source material is true. Since it was written thousands of years ago, we can't cross-examine the authors, and we have found substantial portions that don't stand up to modern knowledge of physics, chemistry, biology, cosmology, mathematics and geology. This calls all the rest into serious question. The fact that The Faithful continue to believe in even those parts that have been conclusively proven false simply compounds the issue. I could claim:

CAPTAIN AHAB EXISTS

and post quotes from Moby Dick as "proof" -- but that would not make it true.

One of the many things from religion that annoy me -

"Another difference is that we are all still born in sin but we can no longer claim an inherent weakness of flesh associated with being descendants of Adam. Some churches teach that once Jesus died for our sins in the New Testament, we ceased being descendants of Adam and became descendants of Jesus. As a result we can no longer claim a weakness of the flesh, because GOD removed the innate propensity to sin, as promised to us in
29 I will also save you from all your uncleannesses: and I will call for the corn, and will increase it, and lay no famine upon you."

The assumption that a natural process like sex, birth, companionship and love is sinful and a weakness of the flesh, is offensive and stupid. When Christian groups picket strip joints and brothels they annoy many, if it is not compulsory to attend then butt out as it is none of your business.

Couple of things.

Mark was written 30 to 40 years after Christ, in Rome, at at time when pork was the most popular meat to eat in Rome, and is confirmed to have been changed from the original text. Oh and written in Greek, and the Greeks also ate a lot of things that were on the banned list. It was written for the Gentiles, those who didn't follow the Jewish dietary laws in the first place.

Sounds far more like someone re-interpreting the rules to attract followers.

Or ignoring bits to fit in with the authors prejudices perhaps?

Imaginos1892 wrote:I asked for evidence, but have not seen any. Posts that purport to present that evidence fall into two categories:

I can't believe the universe could have developed to its current state through blind natural processes, so that proves that it was created by God.

I'll answer that as Roger Zelazny did:

Postulating infinity, all else follows as a matter of course.

Meaning that, given sufficient scope and time, any event having a non-zero probability is not only possible, but inevitable. Hundreds of billions of galaxies containing hundreds of billions of stars each times several billion years means that even the least probable things have happened over and over again. The pattern for a self-replicating molecule only has to happen once to start a process that can lead to life.

Extensive quotes from a certain collection of Bronze Age fairy tales.

That makes the fatal assumption that the source material is true. Since it was written thousands of years ago, we can't cross-examine the authors, and we have found substantial portions that don't stand up to modern knowledge of physics, chemistry, biology, cosmology, mathematics and geology. This calls all the rest into serious question. The fact that The Faithful continue to believe in even those parts that have been conclusively proven false simply compounds the issue. I could claim:

CAPTAIN AHAB EXISTS

and post quotes from Moby Dick as "proof" -- but that would not make it true.

The Judeo-Christian-Muslim texts point out the god Molech (various spellings), who required child sacrifice. One might say that Jehovah used man as an instrument to sacrifice his son to Molech. Never did care for the proving love by blood atonement ritual.