Sphinx and Gryphon class SD

Other thing is using them as system defense forces, Sollies won't go after them cus they're scared a lot about fighting GA ships.

dreamrider wrote:If the current USNA, NROTC, and USCGA can be used as examples (and I'm not sure that shoe quite fits David's concept), earlier cadet 'cruises' would probably be limited to dedicated training vessels in local space, and to very short term familiarizations on vessels attached to the space stations or in Home Fleet.

The Manticore System itself and near it would make for some really impressive training possibilities. Cadets could get close to, and maybe carefully watched hands on, plenty of orbital traffic control, maintenance at the orbital yards, in-system navigation between Manticore and Sphinx, microjumps between Manticore A and B heading to and from Gryphon, junction astro control duty, maintenance of the huge system sensor array, navigation around the hyperspace exclusion zone generated by the Junction, and junction transit practice with hops to Trevor's Star, Beowulf, Lynx, and others. So those "dedicated training vessels in local space" could be doing an excellent job for them without being mentioned, and without taking them away from the Academy for long periods.

A dedicated training vessel off to do some training in a fairly quiet, semi-private area needn't do more than head out to Manticore B or Basilisk. That's probably a minor concern, but still, it's one more thing the RMN has going for it training near home.

Draken wrote:Other thing is using them as system defense forces, Sollies won't go after them cus they're scared a lot about fighting GA ships.

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They "could" be effective as system defense ships IF the supply of older / compatible missiles is sufficient.
If there is a missile collier / ammo ship available, they could use deployed pods, however Hercules' fire control was inferior to a Sag-C.

I suspect Alizon and the other smaller Alliance members would prefer a dozen Sag-A's over 1 older SD. The SD might have more prestige, but the Sag-A's or a batch of Homer / Reliant BC's would be more useful.

-- Stewart

stewart wrote:[

I suspect Alizon and the other smaller Alliance members would prefer a dozen Sag-A's over 1 older SD. The SD might have more prestige, but the Sag-A's or a batch of Homer / Reliant BC's would be more useful.

-- Stewart

What they want is pretty much immaterial unless they are building or buying. When you depend on the generosity of strangers for defense you'll have to accept what they are willing to give you.

kzt wrote:

stewart wrote:[

I suspect Alizon and the other smaller Alliance members would prefer a dozen Sag-A's over 1 older SD. The SD might have more prestige, but the Sag-A's or a batch of Homer / Reliant BC's would be more useful.

-- Stewart

What they want is pretty much immaterial unless they are building or buying. When you depend on the generosity of strangers for defense you'll have to accept what they are willing to give you.

There's that. Perhaps more diplomatically, I think they're probably already getting or keeping help with their own updated LAC forces and perhaps system defense missiles, and the SLN is likely to have far too much to do far closer, or with higher profile as a target, than to come way out to pester Zanzibar or Alizon, or even Grayson.

Zakharra wrote:

n7axw wrote:I don't see a need. The GA has SDPs coming out the ying-yang by the time you combine Manticore (400) Grayson (150 minimum) Haven (300+) and programs for building more are going full bore at bolthole and other yards.

Where the GA is short of hulls is in the BC, Heavy and light cruiser, destroyer classes. For the kind of jobs out there that need to be done mostly, a SD of any description is about like hitting a thumb tack with a sledge hammer which would make refurbishing older SDs wasteful unless you have buyers for the units in question.

Don

I think there's some slight problems with that analysis even though it looks solid. Atm, Manticore can't build squat. Ships or missiles. Their yards are off line for at least half a year or more and even then, the building is going to start out small, then increase at a geometric rate. Grayson, as far as I know is stretched to man the ships it currently has (I believe this was a pet peeve High Ridge had with Grayson as during his administration, the Graysons keep building ships despite High Ridge's disapproval). They are a single world to Manticore's three worlds, and likely are at or near the limit of what they can put into their navy.

Haven I will give you with the condition that the RHN has to rebuild its fleet to replace the 200+ SDs they lost in the first Battle of Manticore. A lot of their fleet is likely going to be kept close for security reasons, as will much of the GAs entire fleet. I can see some fleets being released for action, but many will have to be kept on watch just in case. And if the SLs commerce raiding is even half way effective, that will further deplete the number of ships the RMN can deploy. Unless the RHN is allowed to do patrol duty in SEM systems in Silesia.

So are you in favor of refitting the Gryphons and Sphinx class SDs? I don't see anything in your post that really contradicts mine.

IIRC, Haven had over 550 SDPs prior to BM I which means that while their losses do need to be replaced, they also had a lot of building slips, many of which were busy building SDPs. And they still have lots of SDPs.

As I count the GA's SDP strength, total at this point (at the end of ART has to be around a thousand. I find myself wondering how those ships will be utilized. They certainly have more than enough even considering the need to retain a strong home fleet presense to go after the League.

As for the MAlign, they can't even find the MAlign or see the opposition when it is out there. I don't know what you do with that...

Commerce protection, of course, is a different problem. I have been commenting all along that I think that the GA needs more smaller hulls. In fact I find myself wondering if perhaps they couldn't built somewhat fewer hulls for SDPs out at Haven and build more in the cruiser/destroyer classes where there is a real shortage.

Don

n7axw wrote:

Zakharra wrote: "n7axw"I don't see a need. The GA has SDPs coming out the ying-yang by the time you combine Manticore (400) Grayson (150 minimum) Haven (300+) and programs for building more are going full bore at bolthole and other yards.

Where the GA is short of hulls is in the BC, Heavy and light cruiser, destroyer classes. For the kind of jobs out there that need to be done mostly, a SD of any description is about like hitting a thumb tack with a sledge hammer which would make refurbishing older SDs wasteful unless you have buyers for the units in question.

Don quote

I think there's some slight problems with that analysis even though it looks solid. Atm, Manticore can't build squat. Ships or missiles. Their yards are off line for at least half a year or more and even then, the building is going to start out small, then increase at a geometric rate. Grayson, as far as I know is stretched to man the ships it currently has (I believe this was a pet peeve High Ridge had with Grayson as during his administration, the Graysons keep building ships despite High Ridge's disapproval). They are a single world to Manticore's three worlds, and likely are at or near the limit of what they can put into their navy.

Haven I will give you with the condition that the RHN has to rebuild its fleet to replace the 200+ SDs they lost in the first Battle of Manticore. A lot of their fleet is likely going to be kept close for security reasons, as will much of the GAs entire fleet. I can see some fleets being released for action, but many will have to be kept on watch just in case. And if the SLs commerce raiding is even half way effective, that will further deplete the number of ships the RMN can deploy. Unless the RHN is allowed to do patrol duty in SEM systems in Silesia.

So are you in favor of refitting the Gryphons and Sphinx class SDs? I don't see anything in your post that really contradicts mine.

IIRC, Haven had over 550 SDPs prior to BM I which means that while their losses do need to be replaced, they also had a lot of building slips, many of which were busy building SDPs. And they still have lots of SDPs.

As I count the GA's SDP strength, total at this point (at the end of ART has to be around a thousand. I find myself wondering how those ships will be utilized. They certainly have more than enough even considering the need to retain a strong home fleet presense to go after the League.

As for the MAlign, they can't even find the MAlign or see the opposition when it is out there. I don't know what you do with that...

Commerce protection, of course, is a different problem. I have been commenting all along that I think that the GA needs more smaller hulls. In fact I find myself wondering if perhaps they couldn't built somewhat fewer hulls for SDPs out at Haven and build more in the cruiser/destroyer classes where there is a real shortage.

Don

Refit them where? There aren't any Manticore yard that can refit or build anything (yet). Give it time and they will be able to, but atm the SEM is stuck with the ship numbers they have. If the commerce raiding is even half way effective and does damage to or is able to destroy the RMN escort ships, the RMN is going to be in a jam until their yards can start producing ships; and even when their yards to get built, it takes time to build/refit ships, so it could very well be well over a year until the RMN is able to replace any combat losses. They will have missiles long before they get new ships.
As for refitting the Gryphons and Sphinx class SDs, it depends how much it would cost (time and money and effort) to refit them. It might be easier to just build new ones that are fitted with the newer tech than to refit older ships with now outdated tech.

Right now the biggest problem is that their hardware isn't compatible. Haven tech isn't that compatible with Manty and vise-verse. It will take time (and a hell a lot of programming tweaks) to get software and systems that can work on both RMN and RHN ships.

I think the RMN's smaller ships are going to be resembling electrons, trying to be in four places at once when the commerce raiding starts. As will the SLN. all sides are going to need more of the smaller vessels.

Where the GA ships are used depends on the feelings of the nations in it. Will the SEM public really be comfortable with RHN ships possibly patrolling, running escort duty in Silesia or Talbot? Would the RH public like the idea of RMN ships passing through their space to the NE part of SL space? Only time and RFC will tell.

With the Malign out there somewhere, I think the GA and the SEM specifically, are going to hold onto a solid core of SDs divided into several fleets. One for defense of the home system, the other for a heavy strike force for when they -do- find the MAlign, or any other problem crops up that need a heavy hammer to deal with it.

Zakharra wrote:I think the RMN's smaller ships are going to be resembling electrons, trying to be in four places at once when the commerce raiding starts. As will the SLN. all sides are going to need more of the smaller vessels.

Where the GA ships are used depends on the feelings of the nations in it. Will the SEM public really be comfortable with RHN ships possibly patrolling, running escort duty in Silesia or Talbot? Would the RH public like the idea of RMN ships passing through their space to the NE part of SL space? Only time and RFC will tell.

Exactly how many escort ships will you need in Silesia? Isn't it the better part of a year's cruise from the League? Plus unlike before Manticore and the Andies have real system defenses in place - heavy enough to trash any pirate and most commerce raiding squadrons. Most of the convoy work before was just to have ships to secure the bubble of n-space around the convoy on each end. Maybe you still need to convoy across the Rift, but otherwise ships should be quite safe to route freely between any Silesian systems knowing that the SLN is unlikely to be able to defeat the system defenses to lurk in wait.

Now resuming trading out into the Verge is a bit of a different story, but will probably be less volume than trading within the GA and to the Andies.

I'll only add a little comment on this subject, again.

They could be deployed to Silesia as system defense bases.

Lord Skimper wrote:I'll only add a little comment on this subject, again.

They could be deployed to Silesia as system defense bases.

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You mean, to paraphrase a description of a current aircraft carrier --

"Two Kilometers of sovereign RMN territory" ?

-- Stewart