New ship idea

Draken wrote:Raiders which usually go after cargo ships usually are fast as hell and very lightly armed,

The immediate threat of commerce raiders is the SLN/FF. That's not the "usual raiders." The SLN's commerce raiders are going to travel in larger groups with bigger ships -- BC squadrons with escort squadrons of smaller ships; Very much like Giscard's commerce raiding force mix in Silesia.

Given the GA range and missile advantage -- all GA, but especially RMN missiles have increased warhead size over the course of two wars -- I doubt that Nike BC(L) will be required for escort duties, but a healthy dose of Mk-16G capable escorts would be wise. I don't think there are enough Rolands to go around, but combined with BC(P)s and Saganamis of all Mks plus equivalent GSN and RHN assets a decent convoy protection scheme should be possible without involving BC(L)s that can be better used as show the flag/show of force assets escorting diplomats.

Weird Harold wrote:

Draken wrote:Raiders which usually go after cargo ships usually are fast as hell and very lightly armed,

The immediate threat of commerce raiders is the SLN/FF. That's not the "usual raiders." The SLN's commerce raiders are going to travel in larger groups with bigger ships -- BC squadrons with escort squadrons of smaller ships; Very much like Giscard's commerce raiding force mix in Silesia.

Given the GA range and missile advantage -- all GA, but especially RMN missiles have increased warhead size over the course of two wars -- I doubt that Nike BC(L) will be required for escort duties, but a healthy dose of Mk-16G capable escorts would be wise. I don't think there are enough Rolands to go around, but combined with BC(P)s and Saganamis of all Mks plus equivalent GSN and RHN assets a decent convoy protection scheme should be possible without involving BC(L)s that can be better used as show the flag/show of force assets escorting diplomats.

Hi Harold,

Do we have any estimate on how many BC(Ps and BC(L)s are actually available? My own impression was that at the end of ART there weren't that many...

Something else I've wondered about. At the end of ART between Haven, Manticore and Grayson, -- not counting the Andermani-- they have to have close to a thousand SD(P)s. Yet text ev from ART suggests that they are going hell bent for leather on building more. Why? The ones they have are dramatic overkill for the known capacity of any current opponent with the exception of the MAlign. And we really don't have any good idea at this point just how the spiders are effectively countered. Indeed, we can't even find the spiders let alone counter them...

What's your take on all of this?

Don

Yes, we know a minimum number of Roland, Avalon, SAG-c, BCL, BCP ships. House of steel.

wastedfly wrote:Yes, we know a minimum number of Roland, Avalon, SAG-c, BCL, BCP ships. House of steel.

OK. Thanks for the response and reference. I'll go look.

Don

n7axw wrote:

wastedfly wrote:Yes, we know a minimum number of Roland, Avalon, SAG-c, BCL, BCP ships. House of steel.

OK. Thanks for the response and reference. I'll go look.

Don

For those readers who have not acquired HoS yet, the numbers are (based on ships in service just prior to the 1st Battle of Manticore in PD 1920):

NIKE BC(L): We know there are more (since there are a total of 16 with Mike Henke in the Talbott Sector), but whatever was added during the "Python Lump" in 1921 is it for the time being.

AGAMEMNON BC(P): HoS shows 85+ which indicates to me that they still had ships in construction, but probably once those were finished they would go full-time to Nike's. Still, if your'e a Sollie, you are more likely (outside Talbott) an Aggie rather than a Nike (not that it will save you from having your ass blown out of space).

SAGANAMI-C CA: HoS shows 149 built but doesn't include the "+" sign, which I take to mean that there were no more in the pipeline in at the time. Also note that there were 84 Sag-B's and 46 Sag-A's commissioned and presumably still in service.

AVALON CL: There are 196+ in PD 1920, and I presume a lot of them are deployed to Silesia and elsewhere, because we really haven't seen them in action. Also 48 Kamerling-class "system control cruisers" which are larger than the Avalon but more poorly armed, to allow for the addition of Marines and their equipment. I would think we'll see them working the Verge/Shell planets, IMHO.

ROLAND DD: 46+, so those and what came out of the Python lump is all they have. Three have been destroyed (at New Tuscany) but the SEM is still going to have to rely on some of their older DD's (Wolfhound-19, Culverin-72, Javelin-65 and Chansons-204).

We've been spoiled by all the new toys Honor and Mike have showed us, but the new "deciders", especially below-the-wall, are a limited resource and will remain so for at least a couple of years.

For the record, Graysons' newest Below-the-wall numbers in PD 1920 per HoS:

Paul Class DD: 17 and building

Disciple Class CL:52 and building. Given that the Avalons and the Disciples total about 250 ships (and probably closer to 300 pre-Oyster Bay), I'm surprised we haven't seen that much of them).

Burleson Class CA: 17 and building. The also have 36 Protector Adrian (SAG-A/B) ships.

Courvosier II Class BC(P):40+ and IIRC, the Graysons liked this design more than the Manties did, so they may have added even more pre-OB.

As of just before the BoM in 1920, Grayson did not have a BC(L). If they built any between BoM and OB, we knoweth not. They do have 47 Courvosier I's, which are like the SEM's Reliants.

And that's all he wrote (for now...)

n7axw wrote:Do we have any estimate on how many BC(Ps and BC(L)s are actually available? My own impression was that at the end of ART there weren't that many...

Hutch provided the numbers for Manticore and
Grayson. The Andermani aren't part of the GA, but can be expected to indulge in commerce protection in and near their area of influence, and the RHN will have commerce protection assets. Unfortunately I have no idea what kind of assets they have available or what their capabilities might be. (there is some information on Andermani ships, but they are not going to directly contribute.)

There are more Mk16 capable ships than I really expected and More Agamemnons which are Mk23 capable as well as Mk16 capable. (also Apollo capable in light-speed mode.)

There aren't nearly enough smaller ships; there are never enough small ships for convoy escorts, anti-piracy patrols, scouting, and screening duties, so your impression from ART isn't exactly wrong. There is going to have to be a lot of reliance on ERM equipped ships for convoy protection with just a leavening of a division of MK16/Mk23 capable ships in support. I would expect the use of pods tractored to the hull to be fairly common as well -- on both sides of the conflict.

n7axw wrote:Something else I've wondered about. At the end of ART between Haven, Manticore and Grayson, -- not counting the Andermani-- they have to have close to a thousand SD(P)s. Yet text ev from ART suggests that they are going hell bent for leather on building more. Why?

The ones they have are definitely "over-kill" but they're not all comparable. The newest design -- the GA Bolthole Special with hull and basic systems built in Haven yards with Keyhole II and other high-end tech built and installed by Beowulf -- will eventually replace all non-Apollo capable pod-layers with a single SD(P) design.

Building new Bolthole Special SD(P)s is comparable in cost to upgrading older SDs and SD(P)s to Keyhole II and Apollo capability plus there is the inevitable increase in capabilities provided by teaming Hemple and Foracker at Bolthole. Building an Alliance Common SD(P) will reduce the logistics tangle of providing missiles and spares for multiple designs.

In a way, the logic is very similar to the logic of replacing single-drive capacitor-powered ERMs with fusion powered Mk16s and Mk23s; new ships for everyone means the latest and greatest technology will be available for the inevitable showdown with the MAlign.

Weird Harold wrote:

n7axw wrote:Do we have any estimate on how many BC(Ps and BC(L)s are actually available? My own impression was that at the end of ART there weren't that many...

Hutch provided the numbers for Manticore and
Grayson. The Andermani aren't part of the GA, but can be expected to indulge in commerce protection in and near their area of influence, and the RHN will have commerce protection assets. Unfortunately I have no idea what kind of assets they have available or what their capabilities might be. (there is some information on Andermani ships, but they are not going to directly contribute.)

There are more Mk16 capable ships than I really expected and More Agamemnons which are Mk23 capable as well as Mk16 capable. (also Apollo capable in light-speed mode.)

There aren't nearly enough smaller ships; there are never enough small ships for convoy escorts, anti-piracy patrols, scouting, and screening duties, so your impression from ART isn't exactly wrong. There is going to have to be a lot of reliance on ERM equipped ships for convoy protection with just a leavening of a division of MK16/Mk23 capable ships in support. I would expect the use of pods tractored to the hull to be fairly common as well -- on both sides of the conflict.

n7axw wrote:Something else I've wondered about. At the end of ART between Haven, Manticore and Grayson, -- not counting the Andermani-- they have to have close to a thousand SD(P)s. Yet text ev from ART suggests that they are going hell bent for leather on building more. Why?

The ones they have are definitely "over-kill" but they're not all comparable. The newest design -- the GA Bolthole Special with hull and basic systems built in Haven yards with Keyhole II and other high-end tech built and installed by Beowulf -- will eventually replace all non-Apollo capable pod-layers with a single SD(P) design.

Building new Bolthole Special SD(P)s is comparable in cost to upgrading older SDs and SD(P)s to Keyhole II and Apollo capability plus there is the inevitable increase in capabilities provided by teaming Hemple and Foracker at Bolthole. Building an Alliance Common SD(P) will reduce the logistics tangle of providing missiles and spares for multiple designs.

In a way, the logic is very similar to the logic of replacing single-drive capacitor-powered ERMs with fusion powered Mk16s and Mk23s; new ships for everyone means the latest and greatest technology will be available for the inevitable showdown with the MAlign.

Hi Harold and Hutch,

Thanks to both of you for a nice response. I did download House of Steel and was working through the numbers. As I did that, I notice that I was being given numbers built rather than what was currently in inventory after combat losses or ships being scrapped.

With reference to your other point, I doubt that many of the older medusas and invictuses will actually be retired as long as potential need is there. But they do have lots of SDPs on hand.

Don

n7axw wrote:Thanks to both of you for a nice response. I did download House of Steel and was working through the numbers. As I did that, I notice that I was being given numbers built rather than what was currently in inventory after combat losses or ships being scrapped.

Unfortunately, those are the only hard numbers we have. Even a detailed review of every battle in textev, won't give us better numbers. Forex, we know of three Rolands destroyed with all hands, but we don't know how many, if any, were lost in Haven's attack on Manticore, or if any others have been lost in Silesia or elsewhere (unlikely, but possible.)

n7axw wrote:With reference to your other point, I doubt that many of the older medusas and invictuses will actually be retired as long as potential need is there. But they do have lots of SDPs on hand.

Both the RHN and RMN have older SDs (pre-pod) to replace as well as retiring the original pod-layers in favor of newer ships built with lessons learned from those first generations ships.

I doubt any Invictus class will be at the front of the queue for replacement, since they are already KHII/Apollo capable. It will be interesting to see what Bolthole Specials are like once they start to enter service; I wonder who will get the lead ship and what it will be named.

Weird Harold wrote:I doubt any Invictus class will be at the front of the queue for replacement, since they are already KHII/Apollo capable. It will be interesting to see what Bolthole Specials are like once they start to enter service; I wonder who will get the lead ship and what it will be named.

With Haven building them... probably the Javier Giscard, if there isn't already one. As for who gets the first one, I suspect the assortment of senior flag officers will want to keep their current flagships(consider that Hamish commanded Buttercup from an old-style SD, plus Tourville and Henke retaining their BC flagships), so it probably winds up under a 'mid-range' Havenite. Oliver Diamoto, perhaps?

Each component of the GA will probably name the class differently, after the first ship they take delivery of.

Actually, universally naming the class after Jack McBryde might deliver an interesting message.

Draken wrote:Also what about yards in Basilisk? Before Havenite raid there were yards and if I remember it correctly High Ridge rebuilt all orbital installations? Also we have new yards which are under construction in Manticore, if I'm right they could first build yards and start new ships and after that start building other part of stations.

There are no yards in Basilisk, and Manticore will not be building any naval yards in Basilisk.

Manticore is indeed building new yards in the Manticore system. In fact, if they have held to the schedule that White Haven outlined to the Queen, some of the yards should already be built and ship construction should be started by this time in the books.