Commanding Officer's Course?

I was reading over Honor's service record and in 1896 PD she was a student in a Commanding Officer's Course. She was then given command of a Destroyer before taking the Advanced Tactical Course.

Now we know that it is not unheard of for officers to command Destroyers, and probably Frigates when they were still in use before taking the ATC but it was considered rare. We also know that both courses are post-graduaation classes at Saganami Island.

So does anyone know what exactly the point of the Commanding Officer Course is if passing the ATC was typically one of the precedents to command a RMN hyper-capable warship? Also anyone have any idea what the difference between the two courses was?

It appears that the ATC was shorter for Honor. There were just under 9 months from her entering the Commanding Officer's Course to her being posted to HMS Hawkwing while there were roughly 6.5 months between her entering the ATC and taking command of HMS Fearless. However there is no proof I can find that this gap represents an actual difference in the length of the course rather then something else effecting the time it took Honor to reach her new post. Leave or perhaps Hawkwing needed more time in dock before returning to service

Typically a CO course is focused on the mechanics of commanding and running your command. How do you keep the ship running when you are in charge and far from home, administration of justice, how to fill out paperwork you have never before seen, interactions with the officers you'll be rating and your senior NCOs, how to represent the Queen when you are in fact the person in the system who needs to make decisions in her name. All sorts of mechanics plus some indoctrination in how it is expected you will do it.

The ATC is about fighting the ship. Which is a small piece of what a CO does, but a very, very important piece.

Here is a modern example:
http://www.armytimes.com/article/201308 ... ds-2-weeks

Hmm, that worked an hour ago... Let's try:

http://www.armytimes.com/article/201308 ... ds-2-weeks

Ok, now that broke. I think they are doing maintenance on their servers.

Roguevictory wrote:I was reading over Honor's service record and in 1896 PD she was a student in a Commanding Officer's Course. She was then given command of a Destroyer before taking the Advanced Tactical Course.

Now we know that it is not unheard of for officers to command Destroyers, and probably Frigates when they were still in use before taking the ATC but it was considered rare. We also know that both courses are post-graduaation classes at Saganami Island.

So does anyone know what exactly the point of the Commanding Officer Course is if passing the ATC was typically one of the precedents to command a RMN hyper-capable warship? Also anyone have any idea what the difference between the two courses was?

It appears that the ATC was shorter for Honor. There were just under 9 months from her entering the Commanding Officer's Course to her being posted to HMS Hawkwing while there were roughly 6.5 months between her entering the ATC and taking command of HMS Fearless. However there is no proof I can find that this gap represents an actual difference in the length of the course rather then something else effecting the time it took Honor to reach her new post. Leave or perhaps Hawkwing needed more time in dock before returning to service

I can tell you that my Commanding Officer's Course in the U.S. Army, immediately before I took company command, was NOT about how to use that company for its assigned mission. It was about the "everything else" of running a military unit: law, discipline, inventory, personnel administration, inspections, IG complaints, care & feeding of minds and bodies, general subject mandatory training standars and processes, etc.

My branch Officer Advanced Course, which in this case was longer, and earlier in career, also had much of the above, but was focused much more on the operational functions.

I understood later from USAF colleagues in the DoD, that the Air Force broke officer development schools up in generally the same way, with gateway schools on the command track that were about running a unit and managing airmen, and other schools that were about technical roles and warfighting.

dreamrider

@kzt

I see great minds run in similar tracks.

You posted just as I was finishing my reply, and I did not read it before hitting 'submit' again.

(BTW, as of when I post this, your link above is broken.)

dr

Interesting and thanks both of you.

One other thing. In time of war or high optempo, CO courses are given much closer to home, and are often known by a couple of alternative names...

Master Chief,
Adjutant,
First Sergeant,
JAG,
XO,
Supply Sergeant,
etc



dr

Also is she's a tactical genius she wouldn't have problems with ATC so she probably jumped few classes up. Also she show that she had command abilities before that, Attica Avalanche rescue mission, she was commanding officer there. It shows that powers in fleet trusted her, because if not they would send somebody senior to take that post from her. OCS isn't thing which you could easily learn paperwork is hard and there is a lot of that.

Roguevictory wrote:I was reading over Honor's service record and in 1896 PD she was a student in a Commanding Officer's Course. She was then given command of a Destroyer before taking the Advanced Tactical Course.

Now we know that it is not unheard of for officers to command Destroyers, and probably Frigates when they were still in use before taking the ATC but it was considered rare. We also know that both courses are post-graduaation classes at Saganami Island.

So does anyone know what exactly the point of the Commanding Officer Course is if passing the ATC was typically one of the precedents to command a RMN hyper-capable warship? Also anyone have any idea what the difference between the two courses was?

It appears that the ATC was shorter for Honor. There were just under 9 months from her entering the Commanding Officer's Course to her being posted to HMS Hawkwing while there were roughly 6.5 months between her entering the ATC and taking command of HMS Fearless. However there is no proof I can find that this gap represents an actual difference in the length of the course rather then something else effecting the time it took Honor to reach her new post. Leave or perhaps Hawkwing needed more time in dock before returning to service

A point that others have not made yet:

I expect that every officer needs to take the Commanding Officers Course in order to attain higher rank, whether or not they ever intend to command a ship. So it is about the kinds of things that every officer need to know, including those sitting behind desks.

Also, I think that ATC is actually independent cruiser and squadron school rather than command school. RMN doctrine emphasizes the Saganami tradition, which is fighting even if you are going to loose if it accomplishes anything meaningful. For destroyers, given how fleet they are and their fragility, the question is usually do they accept the engaugement, and the only reason they would is if they have something to protect. Cruisers, or destoryer divisions, on the other hand, have more options and have a greater value, the preservation of the command, a passing engaugement, living to fight another day, rather than dying for duties sake, ensuring that at least to the word is passed, occupies a greater revelence for such commands.
COC is probably intended for lieutenant commanders about to enter the command tract, warship or otherwise, or for commanders who were just selected for it.
ATC is for warship commanders who are being evaluted for Captain JG, or the possibility of being offered one of the rare obsolete CL commands as a commander (which is a way of saying being vetted for accelerated promotion).

HungryKing wrote:snip
ATC is for warship commanders who are being evaluted for Captain JG, or the possibility of being offered one of the rare obsolete CL commands as a commander (which is a way of saying being vetted for accelerated promotion).

Obsolete CL commands? I have seen no textev that CLs are about to be come obsolete - quite the contrary - Lighter elements are going to be come more important as the need for scouting, commerce protection, and commerce raiding increases.