Manpower shortage

For another ridiculous acronym:

Canadian
Womens
Army
Corps

Or CWAC, pronounced "quacks"

n7axw wrote:Hi Ed,

I'm gonna fire, but only a puff-ball, because in principle I agree with you. But remember that this society is heavily patriarchal. WINS is probably a necessary intermediate step.

Don

Hi Don,
You may be right. The biggest advantage to the separate structure approach IMHO is that the impact of the "female" issues, menstruation and pregnancy, is minimized because women are kept together and separate from men.
If you're going the separate structure route, I think you're better off with separate organizations for each branch of service, WACS and Waves. Ranks and unit structures should parallel the male branch and basic training should (might even) include weapons training. Weapons training right out of the chute might be a bit much for our patriarchs. Can you imagine the first Camp Perry matches!

EdThomas wrote:WINS is a really BAD idea. We're looking to move to a gender-neutral society that's gonna kick some Gbaba butt. Setting up a separate organization will only make it more difficult to integrate the empire's military forces. An officer is an officer. An NCO is an NCO. Does a male enlisted man have to salute a female officer? Is a female captain outranked by a male captain? Merlin and Nimue, and hopefully some members of the Inner Circle, know women have to be integrated into the armed forces. Setting WINS up with a completely separate command structure reinforces the idea that women have to be kept separate....
Fire away.

I am seeing WINS more as a recruiting tool than a separate service. If someone were to suggest it as a separate service, Sharley would probably quash it in an instant much as she did the idea of import duties on Old Charisian goods coming in to Chisolm. She is forward thinking enough, understands enough about the ultimate goals, and has enough access to OWL's history to understand the difficulty that 'separate but equal' service will create, and the roadblocks to overcoming it. Not that an initially integrated service will be easy to acheive. Look at the difficulty we are having acheiving it in the early 21st century. Can you imagine trying to do this with a 19th century mindset?

eldrwyrm wrote:

EdThomas wrote:WINS is a really BAD idea. We're looking to move to a gender-neutral society that's gonna kick some Gbaba butt. Setting up a separate organization will only make it more difficult to integrate the empire's military forces. An officer is an officer. An NCO is an NCO. Does a male enlisted man have to salute a female officer? Is a female captain outranked by a male captain? Merlin and Nimue, and hopefully some members of the Inner Circle, know women have to be integrated into the armed forces. Setting WINS up with a completely separate command structure reinforces the idea that women have to be kept separate....
Fire away.

I am seeing WINS more as a recruiting tool than a separate service. If someone were to suggest it as a separate service, Sharley would probably quash it in an instant much as she did the idea of import duties on Old Charisian goods coming in to Chisolm. She is forward thinking enough, understands enough about the ultimate goals, and has enough access to OWL's history to understand the difficulty that 'separate but equal' service will create, and the roadblocks to overcoming it. Not that an initially integrated service will be easy to acheive. Look at the difficulty we are having acheiving it in the early 21st century. Can you imagine trying to do this with a 19th century mindset?

Just look at how that idiot on Corisande reacted to Irys' training with guns. And the emperor's remark about crying like a little girl.

The thing is, as open and flexible as people like Cayleb and Sharleyan might be, they are still the product of the society in which they were born.

And however they might have progressed in terms of breaking its shackles, that society is still what they have to work with and mold as they seek to lead. Get too far out in front and they won't have any followers.

That, by the way is true not only for them on Safehold, but for us in our here and now.

Don

n7axw wrote:And however they might have progressed in terms of breaking its shackles, that society is still what they have to work with and mold as they seek to lead. Get too far out in front and they won't have any followers.

Complete agreement, however Sharleyan and Cayleb seem to be quite open to Federation standards on a personal level. More important, I guess, is the issue of transforming the partiarchial societies of the EoC (and Safehold in general). If they try to push too hard, they risk serious pushbacks from "conservatives". That could get messy. Thus, change will be slow - and it will be limiting the workforce potential, by the way.
I think looking at e.g. 1940s developments in use of women in traditionally "male" jobs will be a good blueprint. One should note that there was a significant pushback in most countries after WWII, though.

I also posted this under the subject of Hot Air Balloons:

Looking at LAMA and several maps in the series, I would see a development of a separate Imperial Coast Guard. Consisting of mobile, speedy, light-sail craft (maybe outriggers or catamarans); coastal watch-towers; pony express (messenger service); and floating recon platforms. These can all be done by women. But the male chauvinism of the Empire's combined society, as well as the mindset of some nobility has to be swayed. I am still agog that some societies can accept a queen and still treat women second and third class. (P.S. Heterosexual Male Posting Here)

Now as to acronyms -- There is going to be some sort of clerical unit set up to ward off inappropriate acronyms.
Princess Mytha's Snipers?
Battle Infantry Troop, Charisian Hilanders?
Read up on some modifications of acronyms that were avoided during WW2. Such as Combined Unit Naval Transport.

anwi wrote:

n7axw wrote:And however they might have progressed in terms of breaking its shackles, that society is still what they have to work with and mold as they seek to lead. Get too far out in front and they won't have any followers.

Complete agreement, however Sharleyan and Cayleb seem to be quite open to Federation standards on a personal level. More important, I guess, is the issue of transforming the partiarchial societies of the EoC (and Safehold in general). If they try to push too hard, they risk serious pushbacks from "conservatives". That could get messy. Thus, change will be slow - and it will be limiting the workforce potential, by the way.
I think looking at e.g. 1940s developments in use of women in traditionally "male" jobs will be a good blueprint. One should note that there was a significant pushback in most countries after WWII, though.

Yes, the transition will be difficult, but not as difficult as is being portrayed. The best approach is for the Crown to agree with the patriarchs but assert some objective measure to support that agreement.

No, women shouldn't serve in the infantry because they simply do not have the strength to perform the tasks. Women shouldn't be forced to compete with men in professions that require strength and size. It would be unfair. In those circumstances where suitability is uncertain, allow the women to prove themselves worthy or unworthy by their merits. So, the crown would be inhibited from interfering where women are being given opportunities to fail. The crown will judge on the basis on the selection process rather than the personal values of the employer.

So long as there is women's suffrage, the crown can claim it is responding to half its constituents. With a powerful Empress like Sharleyan, how can anyone claim women inherently incapable of at least a vote?

I, for my own part, am not suggesting that the transition toward gender equality not be attempted. I am merely saying that the process is going to require patience, given the society Safehold has at the moment.

Look at our own story here in America. The 100th anniversary of women's achieving the right to vote is coming upon us shortly. And yet we still struggle with equal pay for equal work, glass ceilings and so on.

It is just the way it is.

Don

n7axw wrote:I, for my own part, am not suggesting that the transition toward gender equality not be attempted. I am merely saying that the process is going to require patience, given the society Safehold has at the moment.

Look at our own story here in America. The 100th anniversary of women's achieving the right to vote is coming upon us shortly. And yet we still struggle with equal pay for equal work, glass ceilings and so on.

It is just the way it is.

Don

My point isn't really to begin a movement towards gender equality. My point is that the Crown should begin defining the metrics where social roles are judged. Whether those metrics are used to frequently challenge patriarchy or not is less important than that they are enforced. That the enforcement of those rules become dependable as the day is long.

Create the standard used to evaluate gender roles first and then let those standards slowly change societal attitudes.