Sphinx and Gryphon class SD

Grand Alliance have a lot of mothballed SD, especially Manticoran Sphinx and Gryphon and some newer DN. So why don't we refit them with Mark 16 rockets and use them against Solarian Fleet. They should be quite dangerous. Sollies have ten thousands of wallers, and Grand Alliance have something like eight to ten hundreds. So refiting older ones and some dreadnought should give some time to build new. Refitting them should take up to five maybe six months, so after a nine months we should have at least two or three hundred more. Only problem could be a Keyhole and not enough telemetry links. But against SLN it shouldn't be a big problem for at least six or seven years, they're too big and to narrow-minded to start R&D in short period of time.
Sphinx had around 50 missile launchers per broadside and heavy energy armament, Scientists have 32-30 launchers and similar amount but not the same grade energy armament.
So upgrading Sphinx and other SD design should be solution for lack of hulls. They could create mixed squadrons for example two Nikes and six Sphinx. Nikes will give telemetry and Sphinxes will give firepower.

Draken wrote:Grand Alliance have a lot of mothballed SD, especially Manticoran Sphinx and Gryphon and some newer DN. So why don't we refit them with Mark 16 rockets and use them against Solarian Fleet. They should be quite dangerous. Sollies have ten thousands of wallers, and Grand Alliance have something like eight to ten hundreds. So refiting older ones and some dreadnought should give some time to build new. Refitting them should take up to five maybe six months, so after a nine months we should have at least two or three hundred more. Only problem could be a Keyhole and not enough telemetry links. But against SLN it shouldn't be a big problem for at least six or seven years, they're too big and to narrow-minded to start R&D in short period of time.
Sphinx had around 50 missile launchers per broadside and heavy energy armament, Scientists have 32-30 launchers and similar amount but not the same grade energy armament.
So upgrading Sphinx and other SD design should be solution for lack of hulls. They could create mixed squadrons for example two Nikes and six Sphinx. Nikes will give telemetry and Sphinxes will give firepower.

The problem with refitting is that it requires the same shipyards that they are trying to build new ships in. Every old ship they start refitting means a new ship that isn't being built.

Draken wrote:Grand Alliance have a lot of mothballed SD, especially Manticoran Sphinx and Gryphon and some newer DN. So why don't we refit them with Mark 16 rockets and use them against Solarian Fleet. They should be quite dangerous. Sollies have ten thousands of wallers, and Grand Alliance have something like eight to ten hundreds. So refiting older ones and some dreadnought should give some time to build new. Refitting them should take up to five maybe six months, so after a nine months we should have at least two or three hundred more. Only problem could be a Keyhole and not enough telemetry links. But against SLN it shouldn't be a big problem for at least six or seven years, they're too big and to narrow-minded to start R&D in short period of time.
Sphinx had around 50 missile launchers per broadside and heavy energy armament, Scientists have 32-30 launchers and similar amount but not the same grade energy armament.
So upgrading Sphinx and other SD design should be solution for lack of hulls. They could create mixed squadrons for example two Nikes and six Sphinx. Nikes will give telemetry and Sphinxes will give firepower.

Refitting the launchers to handle micro-fusion reactor start-up on the Mk16 nearly the work of putting in support for full up Mk32s. (You don't have to enlarge the missile tube openings through each armored bulkhead quite as much but you still need to retrofit armor cofferdams around each launcher, replace the launchers themselves with ones capable of reactor initiation in the firing chamber, refit the internal magazines to handle missile of a different size)

And for all that painful and lengthy work you've still got a very manpower intensive design that in many ways is less well defended than a Nike BC(L) (no keyhole, so little to no ability to fight from behind the wedge, less PDLCs, effectively less CMs; since a Nike can fire use the ones on both broadsides, 60, while the Gryphon class can only use the one pointed toward the enemy, with 28 cm tubes). OK it's got better passive armor, and probably more sidewall redundancy, but it's now firing the same missiles so it's not noticeably better offensively (and again less of them because without keyholes it can't control a dual broadsides launch so it's effectively 37 tubes vs 50 for the Nike)

There's a reason they abandoned their efforts to refit Gryphons to fire Mk23s, and they tend to apply even more strongly to refitting them with weaker missiles of similar complexity.


And, as SVM noted, the refit of them takes shipyards that Manticore and Grayson don't have at the moment. But once they have shipyards you're might be able to modify 2 or 3 of these hybrid bastards in the time it would take to build a BC(L) or SD(P) from scratch - and they aren't worth near a 1/3rd of one of those.

Why do this?

The GA already has the remaining 8000 or so Solarian SDs over-matched for several years, if they husband their efforts properly. Remember Spindle?

Among other issues recall:
1) A large proportion of the most modern/modernized Solarian SDs are space dust, or available to Talbott and/or MBS recycling concerns at rock bottom prices; so don't figure the performance vs modern warfighting technology of any additional, more poorly equipped TFs is going to improve;

2) No Solarian capital ship based TF can catch or bring to battle any GA formation which does not choose to engage, except via ambush (also a severe technological challenge) or via direct threat to a defended planet; the track record of the SLN vs GA system defenses is something less than "not so good";

3) The SLN cannot just 'magic up' the qualified ratings to mobilize those thousands of personnel-heavy reserve ships. My guess is they would be extremely lucky to have 50% of them ready for service in 18 months. Even if the mothball yards are not raided by the GA (led by the RMN team that designed Operation Cutworm), it is unlikely that they HAVE 18 months before their supporting national infrastructure comes apart.

No, the GA is NOT worried about the ships the Sollies have, they are worried about the labs and the huge number of clever minds and the sheer resources that the Sollies have. Hence the premise of the Harrington Plan, that to win decisively vs an aroused SL over the lo-o-ong term, they must disassemble the SL into a raft of smaller polities that are at least not acting in concert, and in some cases may prefer a working partnership with the GA rather than any remnant or aggrieved successor 'SL'.

That goal may actually call for prioritizing additional BCs and CAs and CLACs over even 'new technology' SDs. Though they will know in the 'not so back' of their collective strategic mind that they will all too soon need any and every tech and operational edge they can squeeze out, including new SDs, to deal with whatever the next round from the MAlign might be.

dreamrider

dreamrider

I suppose the other problem is were they mothballed, or stripped for parts?

They also have no spare missiles.

Though this would be a more interesting part of the series if David remember these little details and had people worry about running out of missiles and recon drones etc.

But kzt,

they only have to plan to use so few of the extant missiles vs any conceivable SL threat/target.

dr

[quote="Draken"]Grand Alliance have a lot of mothballed SD, especially Manticoran Sphinx and Gryphon and some newer DN. So why don't we refit them with Mark 16 rockets and use them against Solarian Fleet.

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Draken --

Unless someone has already welcomed you, good first post; pour yourself an Old Tillman.

An alternate view to others in this thread would be to refit only the fire control links and use the Gryphon's and Sphinx's with a missile collier to dump out pods for rear system defense.
As a front-line SD, the Gryphon's and Sphinx's lose much of the GA advantage in the missile range of the Mk16 and Mk23; but they could be rear area security. They are more manpower intensive than the new SD(P)'s, tho less so than the ISLN.

-- Stewart

Also they could be sufficient to be used as a raiding for and for protecting force in the Verge. Older SD is better than none. Also they should be quite capable destroying a lot of SLN ships if needed.
Sphinx had 36 missiles, 21 lasers, 19 grasers, 27 counter missiles, 31 point defence. So they should be able to destroy any SLN ships. In the Verge and shell they should be only facing Nevadas, which have light armament and Haven have a lot of manpower. And if I'm correct it's very similar to old flights Homers, so they shouldn't have a lot of problems with them. And even Bellerophon should be a little overkill in Verge, even if they will run into any Solly SD they should destroy them if they will have Mk 16 or newer missiles, Mk 23 will be overkill and adding Keyhole don't have a lot of sense.
Is there any news if Andermani will give as a present a Seydlitz class ships, also is there any news on Medusa-B?
Also bigger Nikes with more missiles and grasers should be cheap solution for fighting against Sollies Frontier Fleet and even so older squadrons of Battle Fleet.

Something of a tangent - Does the RMN still have stocks of their older, pre-Apollo, perhaps even pre-MDM missiles on hand? Granted, they lose the stupendous range advantage that makes SLN numbers (such as remain and can be employed) so many targets. But if those older missiles can be fired from current launchers - or fill up older units that can still be used - they'd be able to fill in where the full capability of the last ten years of advancement isn't needed.

SLN missile defense doctrine and equipment have still been outdated by the standards of the RMN and PN as of the beginning of these wars, and the pre-Buttercup missiles still have a whole lot of EW advances and I think a slight range advantage over the non-Cataphract SLN missiles. And some of that EW, and the targeting assistance of a stealthed FTL recon drone near the target, would still apply to those "old" RMN missiles.