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Hot Air Balloons for Artillery spotting

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Re: Hot Air Balloons for Artillery spotting
Post by AirTech   » Mon Nov 17, 2014 3:51 am

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Keith_w wrote:While Hydrogen would be a more effective lifting gas than hot air, there is a natural advantage to hot air - hydrogen needs to made, stored in stong ncontainers, transported and then used - probably just once. Hot air can be made on the spot where ever theirs something burnable, or if there is a politician handy.


Hydrogen can be made on the spot too, and given its difficulty in storage (and leaks from the balloon envelope), the earliest aeronauts usually did just that.
The usual technique consisted of zinc filings and acid. An alternative was town gas (also known as water gas or syn gas)- carbon monoxide and hydrogen produced by burning coal and then adding steam. (The second was quite common if your balloon was launching from a city with gas street lighting- but your balloon has to be significantly bigger due to reduced buoyancy.)
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Re: Hot Air Balloons for Artillery spotting
Post by chrisd   » Mon Nov 17, 2014 4:38 am

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Keith_w wrote:" . . . .Hydrogen needs to made, stored in strong containers, transported and then used - probably just once. "


Hydrogen is a "pig" to store, even in your "strong containers" as its molecule is so small that it diffuses through the "crystal lattice" of steel etc..
A a practical experience, "we" needed to inflate two tyres on a Land-Rover whilst up in the "Empty Quarter! near the KSA/Oman border, about 1½ hours from graded road and a base where there was a compressor.
The choice was a foot-pump (40+ °C and no shade) or use one of our hydrogen cylinders. We took the tyres up to 40psi and they were flat again just after we got out of the sand. Pumping them up again with air, they stayed up indefinitely. They were "Airtight" but Hydrogen got out.


Keith_w wrote: Hot air can be made on the spot where ever theirs something burnable, or if there is a politician handy.


Burning the politician might be even more effective, as well as being considerably more satisfying.
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Re: Hot Air Balloons for Artillery spotting
Post by Theemile   » Mon Nov 17, 2014 8:36 am

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Thre was a show on PBS concerning the anniversiary of the 1st balloon flight - "experts" and a relative of the Montgolfier brothers (The brothers who invented the hot air balloon and first flew in 1782) recreated the original balloon.

The original event was made even more renouned, due to the attendance of the science "superstar" of the times - Ben Franklin.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/space/ben-franklins-balloons.html
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Re: Hot Air Balloons for Artillery spotting
Post by Keith_w   » Mon Nov 17, 2014 8:53 am

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AirTech wrote:
Keith_w wrote:While Hydrogen would be a more effective lifting gas than hot air, there is a natural advantage to hot air - hydrogen needs to made, stored in stong ncontainers, transported and then used - probably just once. Hot air can be made on the spot where ever theirs something burnable, or if there is a politician handy.


Hydrogen can be made on the spot too, and given its difficulty in storage (and leaks from the balloon envelope), the earliest aeronauts usually did just that.
The usual technique consisted of zinc filings and acid. An alternative was town gas (also known as water gas or syn gas)- carbon monoxide and hydrogen produced by burning coal and then adding steam. (The second was quite common if your balloon was launching from a city with gas street lighting- but your balloon has to be significantly bigger due to reduced buoyancy.)


I was aware of the combining natural gas and steam technique for extracting hydrogen, however, since the oil industry on Safehold is Kraken based rather than hydrocarbon based, I figured that was not happening for a while, and since the other method that I was aware of, without researching was electrolysis, and considering the prohibitions on electricity, that's definitely off the table.

On top of that, I can't believe that I typed "theirs" rather than "there is".
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Re: Hot Air Balloons for Artillery spotting
Post by SWM   » Mon Nov 17, 2014 9:57 am

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TN4994 wrote:During WW2, the USN had several Rigid Airframe Squadrons using helium, reportedly a very common gas in the universe.
If a PICA comes into contact, would it's voice change?

It is indeed the second most common element in the universe (behind hydrogen). Unfortunately, it is not as common on a planet, because it does not combine with other elements and it is so light that it will easily dissipate into space. Still, there is sufficient helium on a rocky planet to support an airship industry, if you know how to locate and store it. The U.S. still has a strategic helium reserve, in case we ever need to make zeppelins.
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Re: Hot Air Balloons for Artillery spotting
Post by Randomiser   » Mon Nov 17, 2014 11:25 am

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Yes, but
1 The main source of Helium is natural gas which contains a few percent when it comes out of the ground, so not on Safehold till they get a petrochemicals industry.
2 In RL the US Congress is closing the reserve although it still contains a fair bit of Helium which has quadrupled in price since 2000 and which has an increasing use in cryogenics and superconductors
3 Various learned bodies are concerned this will drive the price even higher and make the supply much more volatile.
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Re: Hot Air Balloons for Artillery spotting
Post by TN4994   » Mon Nov 17, 2014 1:05 pm

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While waiting for HFQ to be released I'm going to scribble an opening attack from Temple Bay.
If during the summer it will consist of battlecruisers firing dry-propellant buzz-bombs.
If during winter, ice-dragons (code name, classified project being developed on the southern continent near Proctor Lake). Both will use balloons for accessing damage and directing fire.
I expect the evil author will write some advanced defense system into the Temple proper. But, hey, it's an advanced structure.
Oh, and just on the north edge of Zion as signal rockets explode a message appears SURRENDER CLYTAHN. Too much?
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Re: Hot Air Balloons for Artillery spotting
Post by Keith_w   » Mon Nov 17, 2014 1:48 pm

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TN4994 wrote:Oh, and just on the north edge of Zion as signal rockets explode a message appears SURRENDER CLYTAHN. Too much?


I always wondered, was that an order to everyone around, or a suggestion to the person named?
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A common mistake people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.
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Re: Hot Air Balloons for Artillery spotting
Post by DrakBibliophile   » Mon Nov 17, 2014 3:43 pm

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Yes. :twisted:

Keith_w wrote:
TN4994 wrote:Oh, and just on the north edge of Zion as signal rockets explode a message appears SURRENDER CLYTAHN. Too much?


I always wondered, was that an order to everyone around, or a suggestion to the person named?
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Paul Howard (Alias Drak Bibliophile)
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Sometimes The Dragon Wins! [Polite Dragon Smile]
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Re: Hot Air Balloons for Artillery spotting
Post by packhunter   » Tue Nov 18, 2014 1:35 pm

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I've just recently reread the entire serries. Including the appendixes.

No where is it specifically mentioned that flight is proscribed. I believe this is intentional on RFC's part as he likely hasn't made up his mind yet on the subject.

I could have sworn that there was a scene about a chinese hot air lantren in the first couple of books. Which is what initiated the reread. Turns out that was not the case and may instead have been from the 163x Ring of Fire serries.

I still realy really really want airships to be a big part of Safehold. Its actually one of those technologies thats increadibly underutilized in our own time, but could have amazing potential in Safehold. I have vissions of tripple hulled behomths carrying passangers and cargo all over. While at the front reconacence zeplins buzz far and wide over the church lines, and Strategic bomber Dirgables raid Church supply depots and transportation hubs constantly.

Charis has the Navy, Chisholm the Army, Corrisande could easily become the primary mover and shaker with regards to the Airforce.
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