Sniper Scopes

TN4994 wrote:Maybe Old Charis will forgo the railroads in favor of Steam Power Road Trains emulating the Australian system. Something mentioned pneumatic tires.

It's possiblem, but there is text ev in LAMA that Howsmyn and his henchmen are thinking about laying rails to facilitate the shipment of coal to Delthak and other manufactories. So that is probably the example that will catch on.

Don

n7axw wrote:

TN4994 wrote:Maybe Old Charis will forgo the railroads in favor of Steam Power Road Trains emulating the Australian system. Something mentioned pneumatic tires.

It's possiblem, but there is text ev in LAMA that Howsmyn and his henchmen are thinking about laying rails to facilitate the shipment of coal to Delthak and other manufactories. So that is probably the example that will catch on.

Don

Also in development are air tires and a possibility of steam driven cars.
One of the books mentioned cement.
They also have coal tar. There exists the feasibility of improving the roadways already in Old Charis.
Does anyone recall a movie with a young man riding a large triangled-sail-skateboard type vehicle across open grassland and city streets. I think it would be perfect for Nimune.

TN4994 wrote:Maybe Old Charis will forgo the railroads in favor of Steam Power Road Trains emulating the Australian system. Something mentioned pneumatic tires.

Once "Locomotive" steam power is available then the "Steel wheel on steel rail" allows much greater tonnages to be moved, and faster, than the road application for the same power deployed.

Direct road haulage really needs the Infernal Combustion Engine to become widely practicable.

As has been mentioned, in Passenger service the steam locomotive can achieve 125 mph and, really, the major restrictor an "Fast Freight" is the braking power, the loads CAN be run up to passenger speeds but stopping the train is the problem.

(Note, also, that "Mallard's" world speed record was achieved during braking trials, to improve braking performance prior to the introduction of additional high-speed services and attempting to remove the necessity of "Double-blocking" the signal system)

chrisd wrote:

TN4994 wrote:Maybe Old Charis will forgo the railroads in favor of Steam Power Road Trains emulating the Australian system. Something mentioned pneumatic tires.

Once "Locomotive" steam power is available then the "Steel wheel on steel rail" allows much greater tonnages to be moved, and faster, than the road application for the same power deployed.

Direct road haulage really needs the Infernal Combustion Engine to become widely practicable.

Safehold already has an extensive network of good roads, where railroads in the real world started off competing against "more than one wagon has gone this way" level of road building.

From the standpoint of getting service up and running for the least cost, road trains already have the most important part of the infrastructure in place. "Steel Wheels on Steel Rails" is more fuel efficient but Safehold doesn't have any "Steel Rails" at the moment, and it does have roads good enough for heavy haulage.

chrisd wrote:

TN4994 wrote:Maybe Old Charis will forgo the railroads in favor of Steam Power Road Trains emulating the Australian system. Something mentioned pneumatic tires.

Once "Locomotive" steam power is available then the "Steel wheel on steel rail" allows much greater tonnages to be moved, and faster, than the road application for the same power deployed.

Direct road haulage really needs the Infernal Combustion Engine to become widely practicable.

As has been mentioned, in Passenger service the steam locomotive can achieve 125 mph and, really, the major restrictor an "Fast Freight" is the braking power, the loads CAN be run up to passenger speeds but stopping the train is the problem.

(Note, also, that "Mallard's" world speed record was achieved during braking trials, to improve braking performance prior to the introduction of additional high-speed services and attempting to remove the necessity of "Double-blocking" the signal system)

So we my see a "Flying Chisholmian" in a few decades.

As Weird Harold noted the good roads are already in place, and there is a steel bottle neck. Railroads use a lot of steel Let’s look at a mile of track laid with fifty-five pound to the yard rail, ties two feet on center, and in fact the same rail specified for the first transcontinental railroad in the 1863 Pacific Railroad Act. For a mile of track the rails weigh 86.43 tons in 352 thirty foot rails. Splice bars weigh (352 @ 29 lbs/ pair ÷ 2,000 lbs/ ton =) 5.104 tons. Nuts and bolts weigh (352 x 4 x 200lbs ÷ 259 ÷ 2,000 lbs =) 0.544 tons. Spikes weigh (5,632 lbs ÷ 2,000 lbs / ton =) 2.816 tons. Totaling the ironmongery we have 94.894 tons. I used two primary references to get these numbers to crunch. The Handlan-Buck Railroad, Miners, Machinists, and Lumber Mill Supplies catalog of 1918, Handlan-Buck Mfg. Co., Saint Louis, Missouri, pages 325-326, and Marshall Kirkman, Building and Repairing Railways, World Railway Publishing Company, London, © 1907, pages 680-681.

Note that locomotives and railroad cars will require even more. Here is the weight of materials in a steam locomotive John H. White Jr. American Locomotives, an Engineering History 1830-1880, © 1968, Johns Hopkins Press, Baltimore, Maryland, pages 474 and 476 quotes the following totals for various materials use in an 1865 Hinkley Locomotive Works 4-4-0 with sixty inch drivers and 15 x 24 inch cylinders. Note that the weights are the finished parts not the rough castings or rough bar stock weight. I calculated following totals. The engine has: brass 1,948 lbs., wood 2,718 lbs, wrought iron 29,627 lbs., and cast iron 19,785 lbs. used in 4,904 parts. The tender has: brass 83 lbs., wood 3,118 lbs., wrought iron 8,330 lbs., and cast iron 6,987 lbs. used in 1,366 parts. Total weight engine 54,078 lbs., total weight tender 18,518 lbs, and total weight engine and tender is 72,596 lbs. spread over a total of 6,270 parts. Thus the locomotive and tender contain: brass 2,031 lbs. 1.0155 tons wood 5,836 lbs or 2.918 tons, wrought iron 37,957 lbs or 18.9785 tons, cast iron 67,772 lbs. or 13.386 tons. Substitute steel for wrought iron and you get the idea. And this is to build a light Civil War Era railroad!

Poker

Weird Harold wrote:Safehold already has an extensive network of good roads, where railroads in the real world started off competing against "more than one wagon has gone this way" level of road building.

From the standpoint of getting service up and running for the least cost, road trains already have the most important part of the infrastructure in place. "Steel Wheels on Steel Rails" is more fuel efficient but Safehold doesn't have any "Steel Rails" at the moment, and it does have roads good enough for heavy haulage.

Harold, you are more right than wrong where N. America is concerned, however, railroads started in England where there was an extensive road network between major cities already with some dating back to Roman times. Safehold has roads better than what was common anywhere on earth prior to about 1900 though.

An example of the quality of the road network and haulage costs in 1830 (year the B&O and C&O were chartered). It cost less per ton mile to put goods on a boat in Baltimore MD for shipping to Alexandria VA, than to ship by Wagon.

TN4994 wrote:Maybe Old Charis will forgo the railroads in favor of Steam Power Road Trains emulating the Australian system. Something mentioned pneumatic tires.

The advantages of railroads are too obvious for them to skip. A railroad can haul a LOT more than any road train (we have trains as long as a mile or longer here in the US). A road train might be used to transport goods and things from the train to places not near the railroad, but the hauling capacity of a railroad is just too good to not build them.

Other modes of transport available under steam power:
Overhead cable-cars (aero-car, gondola)(These I see in areas prone to snow and blowing sand.),
People mover (the wide conveyor belts, like at aiports. I forget which SciFi writer wrote of citywide conveyors),
Elevator (Otis, lift),
Elevator (escalator, mobile stairway).
Duh, I need help on other transports.

pokermind wrote:As Weird Harold noted the good roads are already in place, and there is a steel bottle neck. Railroads use a lot of steel Let’s look at a mile of track laid with fifty-five pound to the yard rail, ties two feet on center, and in fact the same rail specified for the first transcontinental railroad in the 1863 Pacific Railroad Act. For a mile of track the rails weigh 86.43 tons in 352 thirty foot rails. Splice bars weigh (352 @ 29 lbs/ pair ÷ 2,000 lbs/ ton =) 5.104 tons. Nuts and bolts weigh (352 x 4 x 200lbs ÷ 259 ÷ 2,000 lbs =) 0.544 tons. Spikes weigh (5,632 lbs ÷ 2,000 lbs / ton =) 2.816 tons. Totaling the ironmongery we have 94.894 tons. I used two primary references to get these numbers to crunch. The Handlan-Buck Railroad, Miners, Machinists, and Lumber Mill Supplies catalog of 1918, Handlan-Buck Mfg. Co., Saint Louis, Missouri, pages 325-326, and Marshall Kirkman, Building and Repairing Railways, World Railway Publishing Company, London, © 1907, pages 680-681.

Note that locomotives and railroad cars will require even more. Here is the weight of materials in a steam locomotive John H. White Jr. American Locomotives, an Engineering History 1830-1880, © 1968, Johns Hopkins Press, Baltimore, Maryland, pages 474 and 476 quotes the following totals for various materials use in an 1865 Hinkley Locomotive Works 4-4-0 with sixty inch drivers and 15 x 24 inch cylinders. Note that the weights are the finished parts not the rough castings or rough bar stock weight. I calculated following totals. The engine has: brass 1,948 lbs., wood 2,718 lbs, wrought iron 29,627 lbs., and cast iron 19,785 lbs. used in 4,904 parts. The tender has: brass 83 lbs., wood 3,118 lbs., wrought iron 8,330 lbs., and cast iron 6,987 lbs. used in 1,366 parts. Total weight engine 54,078 lbs., total weight tender 18,518 lbs, and total weight engine and tender is 72,596 lbs. spread over a total of 6,270 parts. Thus the locomotive and tender contain: brass 2,031 lbs. 1.0155 tons wood 5,836 lbs or 2.918 tons, wrought iron 37,957 lbs or 18.9785 tons, cast iron 67,772 lbs. or 13.386 tons. Substitute steel for wrought iron and you get the idea. And this is to build a light Civil War Era railroad!

Poker

Which is why developing the railroads would be done after the current war is finished. It greatly expands the reach and scope of commerce and would allow for the rapid transportation of troops and equipment in a time of war. It also gives a very good reason to greatly expand the industrial base by improving and expanding the mines and steel mills as well as reason to develop better and stronger steels. Which can be used to build more railroads, artillery, better steam engines, steam powered warships -and- merchant ships among things.