LACs vs Lenny Dets

There's been a fair amount of suggestions concerning attatching lacs to merchant ships, or other methods to use lacs as convoy defense. I've been thinking about it, and lacs don't seem like an effective way to fight spider ships, specifically the lenny dets. Yes, they may make it easier to detect the lenny dets, or at least have some firepower on hand for any merchant, but from what we've seen of LACs, and what we've heard of the lenny dets, I don't think LACs will work.

One, lacs have never been successful against prepared superdreadnoughts, and the lenny dets are even bigger. No, they don't have wedges, but they do have armor, and they do have a bubble sidewall, and they do have superdreadnought grade weapons (I would assume: we don't know their armament, besides internally carried graser torps, but it makes sense that they have some fairly big grasers/missiles). LACs, though they are pretty great, don't have the weapons or survivability to defeat that. The lac grasers aren't strong enough to break through a heavy sidewall and heavy armor, and they don't have enough missiles for the GA missile swarm (and no Apollo). With lacs attached to convoys, you will probably get some firepower in range of the spider ships, but i think it will probably go more like the lacs at BoM 1 hitting the SD(P)s of Tourville's fleet.

What are your opinions?

I don't know. The LACs were used successfully against those old battleships at Hancock Station and in Buttercup. I believe they would be successful against those dreadnaught sized SDs the SLN uses, given that the tech level there is not even as good as Haven's prior to Buttercup.

But they took a petty severe hit in the First Battle of Manticore against SDPs who could fire lots of missiles. And we know that current doctrine for their use is to use them defensively to help protect capital ships against the sort of missile storm that is routine in the Haven sector.

But against the Detweilers? It's hard to say. We know that the current edition of Shrike has a graser with enough punch to penetrate SD armor. I would think that the answer to this would depend on how effectively the Detweilers are equipped to deal with missiles. Right now what we know of their defenses seems to be pretty heavily reliant on stealth. Once they are located, they probably aren't all that hard to deal with, which still doesn't answer the question as to how effective LACs would be in attacking them.

Don

n7axw wrote:I don't know. The LACs were used successfully against those old battleships at Hancock Station and in Buttercup. I believe they would be successful against those dreadnaught sized SDs the SLN uses, given that the tech level there is not even as good as Haven's prior to Buttercup.

They had over a 3:1 advantage in numbers (100 LACs vs 30-odd BBs) and the BB were caught in the fire of the defending SD squadron as well as the LACs.

And don't forget that the LACs had the advantage of being totally unknown to the Peeps and knocking out almost all their towed pods with the first blow.

And yet, even with SD fire support, total surprise, the no real defensive doctrine against them, and going up against BBs rather than real ships of the line, the LACs were still going to have to break off due to mounting losses after only a few passes. It was only the insane order to scatter, which allowed the remaining LACs to gang up on BBs at over 50:1 odds, that let them ravage them as badly as they did.


No convoy is likely to be bringing along 50+ LACs. The MALign should know quite a bit more about the Mantie "Super LACs" than Haven did. And Lenny Dets should be a lot tougher to tangle with than an old BB. (Oh, and the element of surprise is likely to be on the side of the Lenny Det - so you might lose a bunch of LACs to a surprise first launch)

n7axw wrote:I don't know. The LACs were used successfully against those old battleships at Hancock Station and in Buttercup. I believe they would be successful against those dreadnaught sized SDs the SLN uses, given that the tech level there is not even as good as Haven's prior to Buttercup.

But they took a petty severe hit in the First Battle of Manticore against SDPs who could fire lots of missiles. And we know that current doctrine for their use is to use them defensively to help protect capital ships against the sort of missile storm that is routine in the Haven sector.

But against the Detweilers? It's hard to say. We know that the current edition of Shrike has a graser with enough punch to penetrate SD armor. I would think that the answer to this would depend on how effectively the Detweilers are equipped to deal with missiles. Right now what we know of their defenses seems to be pretty heavily reliant on stealth. Once they are located, they probably aren't all that hard to deal with, which still doesn't answer the question as to how effective LACs would be in attacking them.

Don

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We know that the MAN / RF has been paying attention to the naval developments by the RMN / GSN and RH navies, likely also the IAN.
To get within Graser range, such as what Tremaine's wing did at McGregor during Buttercup, the LAC's have to arrive undetected. Not likely against an opponent that knows their capabilities.
The LAC Shipkiller missiles, such as on the Shrikes and Ferrets, are still short-ranged compared to even older capital ship missiles.
Best offensive employment, IMHO, is as second wave after long range missile strike, to take out the cripples or soft-targets.
Alternate Offensive employment as forward missile screen for the SD's and BC's.
Best Defensive employment is as seen as forward missile defense.
Whether the LAC's (Shrike / Ferret / Katana) can successfully attack a Lenny Det will depend on the Lenny Det's sensor capability and defensive suite, of which we know little and speculate much.

-- Stewart

No, I don't think a handful of LACs guarding a convoy is a good defense against Detweilers. But I also don't think Detweilers would be sent against run-of-the-mill convoys, either. Even freighters can put out two or three times the acceleration of a Detweiler. Unless a Detweiler is extremely lucky, it has little chance of catching a convoy.

Actually, I do see one exception. If a Detweiler prowled around the hyper limit of a system, it could wait for convoys to head outbound. It could detect the convoy hours before it reaches the limit, plenty of time to position itself if he is near enough the track. In that case, a Detweiler might be useful against convoys. And LACs would actually be useful defense for the convoy, too. The LACs could scout well ahead of the convoy, providing multiple sensor platforms with high speed and agility. They could search the convoy transit point long before the convoy is in danger. They would not be able to do much against a Detweiler by themselves, but they could warn off the convoy.

Jonathan_S wrote:

n7axw wrote:I don't know. The LACs were used successfully against those old battleships at Hancock Station and in Buttercup. I believe they would be successful against those dreadnaught sized SDs the SLN uses, given that the tech level there is not even as good as Haven's prior to Buttercup.

They had over a 3:1 advantage in numbers (100 LACs vs 30-odd BBs) and the BB were caught in the fire of the defending SD squadron as well as the LACs.

And don't forget that the LACs had the advantage of being totally unknown to the Peeps and knocking out almost all their towed pods with the first blow.

And yet, even with SD fire support, total surprise, the no real defensive doctrine against them, and going up against BBs rather than real ships of the line, the LACs were still going to have to break off due to mounting losses after only a few passes. It was only the insane order to scatter, which allowed the remaining LACs to gang up on BBs at over 50:1 odds, that let them ravage them as badly as they did.


No convoy is likely to be bringing along 50+ LACs. The MALign should know quite a bit more about the Mantie "Super LACs" than Haven did. And Lenny Dets should be a lot tougher to tangle with than an old BB. (Oh, and the element of surprise is likely to be on the side of the Lenny Det - so you might lose a bunch of LACs to a surprise first launch)

Hi Jonathan S.

One certainly doesn't match the LACs up in any situation where they they don't have vastly superior numbers. Numbers at Hancock were actually a bit lighter than was really comfortable.

At least until the stealth issue is resolved, there won't be any LAC attacks on LennY Dets. My comment was making the assumption the LACs could actually find the things.

We really don't have enough info on the capabilities on the Lenny Dets to know how they would fare in combat except when they are pulling sucker punches.

Don

SWM wrote:No, I don't think a handful of LACs guarding a convoy is a good defense against Detweilers. But I also don't think Detweilers would be sent against run-of-the-mill convoys, either. Even freighters can put out two or three times the acceleration of a Detweiler. Unless a Detweiler is extremely lucky, it has little chance of catching a convoy.

Actually, I do see one exception. If a Detweiler prowled around the hyper limit of a system, it could wait for convoys to head outbound. It could detect the convoy hours before it reaches the limit, plenty of time to position itself if he is near enough the track. In that case, a Detweiler might be useful against convoys. And LACs would actually be useful defense for the convoy, too. The LACs could scout well ahead of the convoy, providing multiple sensor platforms with high speed and agility. They could search the convoy transit point long before the convoy is in danger. They would not be able to do much against a Detweiler by themselves, but they could warn off the convoy.

Even then a Lenny Det is too much ship to waste picking off random merchant ships or even a convoy or two. You don't build something bigger than a BB just to play merchant raider - it's a poor allocation of resources.

Sure tactically it's capable of doing so, just like tactically you could have used Iowa class BBs as commerce raiders - they have the speed, but there are better things for them to be doing and they're too valuable to risk getting damaged or destroyed for the minor return of sinking some merchant ships. Better to use something cheaper and quicker to build to do that kind of scut work; maybe a light cruiser but better a sub, PT boat, airplane, or even an armed merchant cruiser.

A new consideration.

In at least early encounters, GA task force commanders might HAVE to dispatch LACs to make the intercept & first attacks, because they will be the only 'attack weapon' that can effectively close the target. Even after they have basic, vague detection techniques/devices, it is unlikely that the MISSILES will have yet been retro-fitted to get/maintain lock-on at anything much greater than lightspeed/radar/lidar/beam range.

Time to put those capital class spinal grasers to work, lads! Finally!

dreamrider

dreamrider wrote:A new consideration.

In at least early encounters, GA task force commanders might HAVE to dispatch LACs to make the intercept & first attacks, because they will be the only 'attack weapon' that can effectively close the target. Even after they have basic, vague detection techniques/devices, it is unlikely that the MISSILES will have yet been retro-fitted to get/maintain lock-on at anything much greater than lightspeed/radar/lidar/beam range.

Time to put those capital class spinal grasers to work, lads! Finally!

dreamrider

I'd assume that the passive sensor suite on a LD is going to be pretty spectacular. Against that I suspect that the LD may well have a lot less trouble engaging LACs than you might think. I certainly would expect their missile pods are full of missiles with much longer engagement range against a LAC the the LACs effective graser range.

kzt wrote:

dreamrider wrote:A new consideration.

In at least early encounters, GA task force commanders might HAVE to dispatch LACs to make the intercept & first attacks, because they will be the only 'attack weapon' that can effectively close the target. Even after they have basic, vague detection techniques/devices, it is unlikely that the MISSILES will have yet been retro-fitted to get/maintain lock-on at anything much greater than lightspeed/radar/lidar/beam range.

Time to put those capital class spinal grasers to work, lads! Finally!

dreamrider

I'd assume that the passive sensor suite on a LD is going to be pretty spectacular. Against that I suspect that the LD may well have a lot less trouble engaging LACs than you might think. I certainly would expect their missile pods are full of missiles with much longer engagement range against a LAC the the LACs effective graser range.

We shall see.
A counterpoint consideration is that FIRING the missiles at the LACs localizes the firing ship for the tac officers of the follow-up hyper warships that are looking for a missile target of their own. Or even for the Apollo clusters that were fired into the area with 'search and destroy' programming.

Or whatever David has already thought of...

dreamrider