Spider Nukes

kzt wrote:If you cannot detect, much less localize, a spider ship it is totally unimportant what the weapon is you intend to use against it. Because you won't ever get to use that weapon.

Since Dets seem to be taking the place of submarines, the idea may not be so far fetched as you think. Will the Manties have to come up with some sort of Hedgehog system? Or some other sort depth charge idea??? Maybe. Or maybe nukes could provide illumination for sensors to read? All I am sure of is that the Manties will figure something out to negate at least some of the Lennie Det advantages and bring the battle to them.

Think WW2 anti U-boat tactics: We know Dets are incredible on offense from a hidden position but terribly weak if seen.

Theemile wrote:It all depends on where you will be hitting with the Spider forces. Against Manticore, Beowulf, Grayson or Haven - Spider ships will probably have little luck. Against a planet like, say, Prarie, without the big sensitive system arrays, and few, older hyper capable defenders, They can almost certainly get into a system and cause havoc. (Now why you would attack Prarie in such a way is another story...)

Also, at this point in the story line, we are about 1-2 years away from the first of the Leonard Detweiler class of spider SDs being available for MAlign use, so while their forces are limited now, that may not be so for long.

True, there's not necessarily much reason to hit Prarie. But I bet most of the wormholes the RMN is picketing don't have much in the way of system arrays (nor are the RMN ships likely to be allowed to tie into them).

Strategically that likely isn't the best use of the spider ships. But tactically they shouldn't have much trouble sneaking in and maneuvering to deliver a shoal of pods right into the face of the detached RMN force. (And since that's outside the hyper limit they can just hyper away once launching - defeating any likelyhood that any surviving ships can hunt them down)

Jonathan_S wrote:

Theemile wrote:It all depends on where you will be hitting with the Spider forces. Against Manticore, Beowulf, Grayson or Haven - Spider ships will probably have little luck. Against a planet like, say, Prarie, without the big sensitive system arrays, and few, older hyper capable defenders, They can almost certainly get into a system and cause havoc. (Now why you would attack Prarie in such a way is another story...)

Also, at this point in the story line, we are about 1-2 years away from the first of the Leonard Detweiler class of spider SDs being available for MAlign use, so while their forces are limited now, that may not be so for long.

True, there's not necessarily much reason to hit Prarie. But I bet most of the wormholes the RMN is picketing don't have much in the way of system arrays (nor are the RMN ships likely to be allowed to tie into them).

Strategically that likely isn't the best use of the spider ships. But tactically they shouldn't have much trouble sneaking in and maneuvering to deliver a shoal of pods right into the face of the detached RMN force. (And since that's outside the hyper limit they can just hyper away once launching - defeating any likelyhood that any surviving ships can hunt them down)

I just had a thought of what the spider drive ships, the smaller ones, might be good at. Commerce hunting. They could do a lot of damage to merchant ships and orbital space stations, orbital/asteroid/lunar mining and refining centers, shipyards and all sorts of targets. To cover them would force the SEM/GA to spread itself unbearably thin. Which would significantly weaken the military edge of the SEM.

Zakharra wrote:

I just had a thought of what the spider drive ships, the smaller ones, might be good at. Commerce hunting. They could do a lot of damage to merchant ships and orbital space stations, orbital/asteroid/lunar mining and refining centers, shipyards and all sorts of targets. To cover them would force the SEM/GA to spread itself unbearably thin. Which would significantly weaken the military edge of the SEM.

Yep, they definitely should be tactically able to do that pretty much anywhere outside of the most critical of the GA systems.

Of course if that was the plan that the MAlign was going to take they'd be building a lot of (relatively) little ships - not the large LennyDets. Even a Shark is overkill for blowing up some poor unsuspecting station.


Of course if stations start mysteriously blowing up that does reemphasize that Manticore was onto something when they talked about a MAlign force with invisible ships that blew the crap out of their system. So on a grand strategy level I'm not sure how much the MAlign wants to take those out to play - particularly not for 'just' beating up low risk economic targets.

Jonathan_S wrote:

Zakharra wrote:

I just had a thought of what the spider drive ships, the smaller ones, might be good at. Commerce hunting. They could do a lot of damage to merchant ships and orbital space stations, orbital/asteroid/lunar mining and refining centers, shipyards and all sorts of targets. To cover them would force the SEM/GA to spread itself unbearably thin. Which would significantly weaken the military edge of the SEM.

Yep, they definitely should be tactically able to do that pretty much anywhere outside of the most critical of the GA systems.

Of course if that was the plan that the MAlign was going to take they'd be building a lot of (relatively) little ships - not the large LennyDets. Even a Shark is overkill for blowing up some poor unsuspecting station.

Of course if stations start mysteriously blowing up that does reemphasize that Manticore was onto something when they talked about a MAlign force with invisible ships that blew the crap out of their system. So on a grand strategy level I'm not sure how much the MAlign wants to take those out to play - particularly not for 'just' beating up low risk economic targets.

Remember Spider-drive ships are very slow to accelerate and the lack of a wedge makes them very vulnerable to enemy fire should it get close enough. These are not units that would survive in any actual engagement should they be detected.

In "Mission of Honor" and the first meeting we saw of the Renaissance Factors leaders, Albrecht Deitweiler specifically stated that the bulk of their military campaign options would likely revolve around the more conventional navies of their core founding worlds, with the Spider-equipped fleet acting as more of an ace-in-the-hole. That may change for the future though.

Also you are forgetting the distance factor. Mesa and the Darius system are effectively on the other side of Solarian League from Manticore and the GA. Whilst Manticore and Haven could use commerce raiding on each other (and later the League) because of their relative proximity to each other the Alignment doesn't have that option. It is never a good idea to run long term operations (as commerce raiding requires) deep in your enemies territory without some sort of headquarters/supply depots. The risk becomes even greater when you are using a still experimental tech that is one of your greatest tactical benefits, the possibility of it falling into enemy hands or them developing a counter is too dangerous.

Using the spider-drive ships as secret raiders / terror agents in the Solarian League would be much more successful (i.e. the MAN destroys some infrastructure/ships in some system, the RF offers protection). But again with Manticore and the GA now existing a true alternative of the RF and with them aware of the Alignments existence and capabilities the risks of using them in this way must also be considered.

What I think is going to happen (my perspective to be clear) regarding GA system defense, is a move toward using sophisticated missile pod and control platform combinations rather than station large numbers of warships or defense forts. Most of the platforms and pods can simply be carried into a system on freighters/supply ships, deployed in patterns, stealthed/rotate locations, and then remain a passive threat ready to pounce on anything suspicious. If deployed correctly this allows for a vast system wide defense grid requiring minimal warship support, provides few static targets for Oyster Bay style long range launches, and can be rapidly deployed to boost a systems protection without needing long building phases.

I believe that the primary argument against contact nukes for modern naval vessels was the difficulty of doing damage. That difficulty was a combination of wedge, sidewalls, and active/passive defenses.
I believe that spider drive ships would almost be definition have weaker overall defenses, but not necessarily greatly so.
Without the wedge to restrict threat axes, the other defensive systems would need to be more spread out, probably much like a fortress. I'm sure they have the Bubble sidewall like a fortress has as well.
However, passive defenses could be quite good at the cost of extra mass, and combined with decent active defenses could produce an effective overall defense.

ericth wrote:I believe that the primary argument against contact nukes for modern naval vessels was the difficulty of doing damage. That difficulty was a combination of wedge, sidewalls, and active/passive defenses.
I believe that spider drive ships would almost be definition have weaker overall defenses, but not necessarily greatly so.
Without the wedge to restrict threat axes, the other defensive systems would need to be more spread out, probably much like a fortress. I'm sure they have the Bubble sidewall like a fortress has as well.
However, passive defenses could be quite good at the cost of extra mass, and combined with decent active defenses could produce an effective overall defense.

They would certainly have to come up with a counter to mass missile attacks. Being without a wedge and sidewall would be like being naked. Face it, a missile that hits your sidewall more than likely takes it out

Manticore, Grayson and Haven who have the most experience dealing with mass missile attacks have taken to using huge numbers of LACs to thicken their defenses.

At the moment, the spiders only real defense is stealth and that is not going to last indefinitely, especially if they start being used on a regular basis.

Don

ericth wrote:I believe that the primary argument against contact nukes for modern naval vessels was the difficulty of doing damage. That difficulty was a combination of wedge, sidewalls, and active/passive defenses.
I believe that spider drive ships would almost be definition have weaker overall defenses, but not necessarily greatly so.
Without the wedge to restrict threat axes, the other defensive systems would need to be more spread out, probably much like a fortress. I'm sure they have the Bubble sidewall like a fortress has as well.
However, passive defenses could be quite good at the cost of extra mass, and combined with decent active defenses could produce an effective overall defense.

MWW has already said that spiderships do have bubble sidewalls - and that bubble sidewalls are not compatable with the spider drive. So, if a spidership does fire up it's bubble, 1) it is not going anywhere until the battle is over and 2) the sidewall will be a huge glaring sign on every grav sensor in the system, destroying its stealth. So firing up the bubble is the last thing a spider ship wants to do - unless its job is to be a fort.

The vulnerability of the spider ships combined with their reliance on stealth and lack of accel (translate to blue water “speed”) makes them the “U-boats” of the Honorverse. As the sub showed, no amount of stealth can keep you invisible forever. Even if the stealth paint absorbed everything, that in itself can be used against it. If you know there’s one out there (previous attack for example), you can launch a spread of contact nukes beyond its estimated location and watch for “holes” in the EM return from the explosions. Then target the “holes”. Eventually tech would be developed to detect the ships (either threw breaking the stealth or detecting the spider drive itself) from what I’m seeing (& let me know if you have other info I don’t), the “spider drive” seams to use the same tech as a normal wedge drive but instead of concentrating gravity into a huge massive field to force the ship forward with difference in potential, it uses small amounts of gravity locally to pull the ship forward (like the S.W. Yuuzhan Vong’s Dovin Basal) It “grabs” a “patch” of space and “pulls” the ship toward it like a rope climber's arms climbing a rope. If this is true then they can be detected with gravitics if you know what to look for (like a sonar tech having to know what sound to listen for). They can however be easily “washed out” by the heavy use of wedges & sidewalls in close vicinity, (perhaps using a “neutral” civilian ship at slow accel to approach a target area while several spider ships fallow along close into its wedge signature).

BTW the Grazer Missile is a Spider drive missile.