HFQ Official Snippet #7

Not easy. Just worthwhile.

DrakBibliophile wrote:"Unreasonable" may not be the right word.

Strong response is the better term.

The problem IMO with "unreasonable" or "excessive" responses is that while Charis reasonably wants enemy rulers to "worry about Charis's response to obeying Inquisition orders" there's the problem of "over-reaction".

Does Charis want enemy kingdoms to become even greater enemies than they were before by "rubbing their noses" in the fact that they lost?

Dohlar's nobles are somewhat arrogant so while they might accept Charis "kicking the current king off the throne", they would very likely be insulted if their royal family was changed by Charisian orders.

You talked earlier about "defanging" the Dohlar nobles, but that may not be as easy as you think.

PeterZ wrote:My point from the beginning had little to do with justice and more with how to shape the injustice that is a reprisal. The proper target of the reprisal is Dohlar's king. Inquisitors have their own reprisal already. An unjust response to Rahnahld acquiescing to the Inquisition as he did is for the current dynasty to be removed from power. A means to give the replacement monarch legitimacy is to confirm him via a plebiscite.

I see this is another idea you are really in love with and nothing anybody says is going to sway you from it. However, it just won't work, on lots of levels. Why on earth should the Dohlaran population or nobility think a hasty plebiscite organised at gunpoint gives any legitimacy to whoever wins it? To keep the new king on the throne and prevent rebellions would take the kind of huge occupying army the EoC doesn't have to spare. Thirsk would probably refuse to serve, his sense of honour would prevent him from doing so since being a loyal vassal include seeing the king's legitimate heir gets to rule after him, and absent a huge pogrom in the nobility there will always be an heir of some sort. It won't even help that much in dissuading other rulers from obeying the CoGA. They don't actually have that much wriggle room and if they think Charis will depose them and kill their families, that merely makes Charis the kraken in the back yard - only to be worried about after pacifying the Inquisition doomwhale in the living room.

Randomiser wrote:I see this is another idea you are really in love with and nothing anybody says is going to sway you from it. However, it just won't work, on lots of levels. Why on earth should the Dohlaran population or nobility think a hasty plebiscite organised at gunpoint gives any legitimacy to whoever wins it? To keep the new king on the throne and prevent rebellions would take the kind of huge occupying army the EoC doesn't have to spare. Thirsk would probably refuse to serve, his sense of honour would prevent him from doing so since being a loyal vassal include seeing the king's legitimate heir gets to rule after him, and absent a huge pogrom in the nobility there will always be an heir of some sort. It won't even help that much in dissuading other rulers from obeying the CoGA. They don't actually have that much wriggle room and if they think Charis will depose them and kill their families, that merely makes Charis the kraken in the back yard - only to be worried about after pacifying the Inquisition doomwhale in the living room.

I can too be persuaded. I have been several times. Do I think RFC will write the story the way I suggested? Unlikely. My original point was to question how to handle Dohlar's leadership after they get their butts kicked.

Where have I said that the royal house of Dohlar needs to be killed? Never intimated that. Rahndahld? Sure, hold him personally responsible for acquiescing to the Inquisition. His family, no.

I would next recommend that you consider why Siddermark can field such a large army. I suspect they can for the same reason that Napoleon could. The citizens of their nations believed they were part of a nation rather than the obligated subjects of aristocrats. The former actively is invested in the nation he belongs to. The latter meets his obligations if he must. Also, recall that Siddermark is a representative republic. They have a good deal of experience in incorporating new territories into their representative republic. They have been expanding, eh?

The idea that Siddermark and Charis will impose a new government on those they defeat ought to scare the crap out of the jihadi nations. The CoGA will kill individuals. Siddermark and Charis will destroy the entire way of life of those that tick them off enough. Desnair and South Harchong will get the message if Dohlar is treated as I suggested.

As for Thirsk, he can be persuaded that his nation will have an easier time with his working with Cayleb and Stonahr than those two worthies crushing the backbiting aristos that would otherwise govern his country. Given those options, his sense of duty would see his nation and its people taken care of as best he can.

Randomiser wrote:

PeterZ wrote:My point from the beginning had little to do with justice and more with how to shape the injustice that is a reprisal. The proper target of the reprisal is Dohlar's king. Inquisitors have their own reprisal already. An unjust response to Rahnahld acquiescing to the Inquisition as he did is for the current dynasty to be removed from power. A means to give the replacement monarch legitimacy is to confirm him via a plebiscite.

I see this is another idea you are really in love with and nothing anybody says is going to sway you from it. However, it just won't work, on lots of levels. Why on earth should the Dohlaran population or nobility think a hasty plebiscite organised at gunpoint gives any legitimacy to whoever wins it? To keep the new king on the throne and prevent rebellions would take the kind of huge occupying army the EoC doesn't have to spare. Thirsk would probably refuse to serve, his sense of honour would prevent him from doing so since being a loyal vassal include seeing the king's legitimate heir gets to rule after him, and absent a huge pogrom in the nobility there will always be an heir of some sort. It won't even help that much in dissuading other rulers from obeying the CoGA. They don't actually have that much wriggle room and if they think Charis will depose them and kill their families, that merely makes Charis the kraken in the back yard - only to be worried about after pacifying the Inquisition doomwhale in the living room.

Well put, Randomizer. I am revealing my age here a bit, but I remember during the Viet Nam era a cartoon where a peasant was looking up from whatever he was doing in his rice paddy with a puzzled look on his face "e-lec-shoon, e-lec-shoon, what is e-lec-shoon???..." That is precisely the position the Dohlarians are in. A plebiscite wouldn't mean a whole lot.

If the decision is made to replace Rayhnaud, then install his heir who already has built in legitimacy. Truthfully, thinking about the future, I suspect that the more oil the EOC can pour on troubled waters, the better off the whole situation. Getting Dohlar out of the war is the primary goal, not transforming their society.

Don

n7axw wrote:
Well put, Randomizer. I am revealing my age here a bit, but I remember during the Viet Nam era a cartoon where a peasant was looking up from whatever he was doing in his rice paddy with a puzzled look on his face "e-lec-shoon, e-lec-shoon, what is e-lec-shoon???..." That is precisely the position the Dohlarians are in. A plebiscite wouldn't mean a whole lot.

If the decision is made to replace Rayhnaud, then install his heir who already has built in legitimacy. Truthfully, thinking about the future, I suspect that the more oil the EOC can pour on troubled waters, the better off the whole situation. Getting Dohlar out of the war is the primary goal, not transforming their society.

Don

it seems from textev that most realms have parliaments or at least nobles councils. A new king can be elected from that. And Charis can (and should) stay out of that.

Now, is depositing Rahnahld a good idea is another thing. Having him stepping down as part of the surrender terms after flattening his capital is a possibility. But Charis is at war with the Church, not any other realm (they had no choice) and I see no advantage asking more than opting out of the Jihad, and even that will create a lot of troubles between church traditionalists and reformists. Dohlar would then be unable to renegue on its surrender for a long time.

alj_sf wrote:

n7axw wrote:
Well put, Randomizer. I am revealing my age here a bit, but I remember during the Viet Nam era a cartoon where a peasant was looking up from whatever he was doing in his rice paddy with a puzzled look on his face "e-lec-shoon, e-lec-shoon, what is e-lec-shoon???..." That is precisely the position the Dohlarians are in. A plebiscite wouldn't mean a whole lot.

If the decision is made to replace Rayhnaud, then install his heir who already has built in legitimacy. Truthfully, thinking about the future, I suspect that the more oil the EOC can pour on troubled waters, the better off the whole situation. Getting Dohlar out of the war is the primary goal, not transforming their society.

Don

it seems from textev that most realms have parliaments or at least nobles councils. A new king can be elected from that. And Charis can (and should) stay out of that.

Now, is depositing Rahnahld a good idea is another thing. Having him stepping down as part of the surrender terms after flattening his capital is a possibility. But Charis is at war with the Church, not any other realm (they had no choice) and I see no advantage asking more than opting out of the Jihad, and even that will create a lot of troubles between church traditionalists and reformists. Dohlar would then be unable to renegue on its surrender for a long time.

I wonder how many of those councils and parliaments are hereditory and how many are elective. While elections are not unknown on Safehold, I don't have an impression of them being widespread on the mainland outside of Siddarmark.

That being said, your notion here is a constructive thought. I completely agree that getting Dohlar out of the war should be the object rather than imposing punitive terms.

Don