Homophobia

Does anyone know if there is homophobia on Safehold? I can't recall anything like it being mentioned so I probably doesn't exist. However in a world with aristocracies there would be prejudice against in part because of the need to produce an heir(For instance what if Cayleb was gay, it would be hard to produce an heir under those circumstances). However this doesn't necessarily mean that. And there are aristocratic traditions that don't give a damn about parentage. For instance the Romans were perfectly happy with adoption and also with common born Emperors(Although that might be because the Emperor of Rome was basically chosen by the army and the army could 'choose an emperor' at any time, including while the current emperor was still alive)

Highjohn wrote:Does anyone know if there is homophobia on Safehold? I can't recall anything like it being mentioned so I probably doesn't exist. However in a world with aristocracies there would be prejudice against in part because of the need to produce an heir(For instance what if Cayleb was gay, it would be hard to produce an heir under those circumstances). However this doesn't necessarily mean that. And there are aristocratic traditions that don't give a damn about parentage. For instance the Romans were perfectly happy with adoption and also with common born Emperors(Although that might be because the Emperor of Rome was basically chosen by the army and the army could 'choose an emperor' at any time, including while the current emperor was still alive)

I don't think it has been mentioned yet. It really depends on Langhorne's attitude when he wrote Holy Writ.

Hmm the closest was the reaction to Merlin's reveling his ugh, physical reaction to all the fit male bodies playing water polo. Based on this there is a a casual acceptance of hetero sexuality and perhaps negative opinion of same sex couples may occur. Unknown is if the Writ has anything on the matter.

Poker

Highjohn wrote:Does anyone know if there is homophobia on Safehold? I can't recall anything like it being mentioned so I probably doesn't exist. However in a world with aristocracies there would be prejudice against in part because of the need to produce an heir(For instance what if Cayleb was gay, it would be hard to produce an heir under those circumstances). However this doesn't necessarily mean that. And there are aristocratic traditions that don't give a damn about parentage. For instance the Romans were perfectly happy with adoption and also with common born Emperors(Although that might be because the Emperor of Rome was basically chosen by the army and the army could 'choose an emperor' at any time, including while the current emperor was still alive)

MWW has stated that the Holy Writ has specific entries that are intended to thwart the reemergence of racism while the general attitude on sex is definitely not puritanical or catholic (i.e. inherently sinful and therefore to be limited as much as possible). Both of these things imply that, despite the undoubted dishonesty of Maruyama Chihiro in writing the damn thing to begin with, he did begin with a modern attitude on the sticky issues of traditional sexual mores. It stands to reason that there would at least be explicit tolerance of homosexuality and even an utter dismissal of any possibility of so-called "conversion therapies". Just leaving it at that - essentially explicit mentioning that homosexuality is not a sin/abomination and is not to be penalized in any way - would be enough to create a tolerant mindset. And so far, the only mention of this issue I can recall (aside from Merlin's water "rugby" incident) is Clyntahn referring to Earl Tartarian as Anvil Rock's "catamite" though I'm sure it was meant to be derogatory in regards to Tartarian's support of Anvil Rock and not to cast aspersions as to his sexuality (as he's not a child).

It would however leave a lot of room for discrimination in such things as monarchical politics, where such things as marriage (involving the church) and children are essential parts of statecraft. It is entirely possible that a homosexual would become a monarch, in which case he would need to marry for political a alliance and have children to both solidify the alliance and for inheritance. Most smart (or committed) monarchs in a similar situation would do their duty, marry a woman they couldn't possibly love and at regular times have procreative sex. Were they to fail in their duty, there would hopefully be nephews to inherit (though the queen's father would not like this one bit - see the concerns Marie Antoinette's mother had when her husband was unable to preform due to a health issue). Or the queen would have an affair and the children would be passed off as the king's (though this could become a serious problem in the event the king's brother or nephew coveted the throne as it would be used as a pretext for a palace coup).

It's also likely that the Book of Pasquale mentions that children resemble their parents but that Safeholdian humans (likely) lack any way to prove paternity. As such, this would become a serious political issue, which the church would have to chime in on. It all depends on whether or not the Writ is explicit regarding homosexuality and whether the church would simply decide to resolve this issue by "frowning" upon homosexuality in high society.

There have been no clearly visible homosexual relationships in the novels, as far as I can see. That does not mean they don't exist. It does indicate that they may be hidden away. Or that they are so common that no one cares.

The writ tells people to "go forth and multiply". That means heterosexuality is encouraged and probably the norm. After all, a same-sex couple isn't going to produce children without outside help.

But if homosexuality had been an actual crime I'm sure it would have been on the list of made-up accusations that Clyntahn invented against the Wylsyn Circle. He did after all accuse at least one of them of "molesting little girls".

Cayleb's reaction to Merlin's story about the rugby game was to laugh, not to throw a fit about evil sexual acts.

If Langhorne and Bedard had any sense (and they may not have) they would have known homosexual relationships would occur. Probably not immediately, if they had programmed the Adams and Eves to be heterosexual, but certainly by the second or third generation. The sensible thing (considering their goal of rebuilding humanity) would have been to say that such relationships were ok if they produced offspring first.

Of course, we all know Langhorne and Bedard weren't entirely sane.

Well, my IMHO - it may simply be the question, that the Writ gives no moral evaluation at all. After all, Langhorne and Co clearly didn't want their pet religion to create problems in unimportant matters, where they can be avoided!

So yes, i agree with Thanatos -

It stands to reason that there would at least be explicit tolerance of homosexuality and even an utter dismissal of any possibility of so-called "conversion therapies". Just leaving it at that - essentially explicit mentioning that homosexuality is not a sin/abomination and is not to be penalized in any way - would be enough to create a tolerant mindset.

It's simply the simplest way to deal the problem, if you want to create the religion, that supposed to stand for thousand of years!

We do go to some interesting places in these forums, don't we?!
We seem to have textev of prejuduces against man-child relations. It has also been noted that wisest approach to homosexuality would have been to say "it's cool"and to take no notice of it. I'm wondering if Chihiro might have realized the possible problem with royal marriages and also included language to include bisexualty.

If he did, Merlin might not be the only bisexual on Safehold.

The Book of Bedard has been described as giving sound advice on the everyday psychological problems of people. And as there is only one known solution to problems arising from sexual identity which is working just fine, homophobia shouldn't be an issue at all.
That doesn't help transgender cases, though.

Prejudice against man-child relations is a different issue. It involves a lack consent(children are not cognitively capable of giving consent), possible incest(another different issue, this one in reference to parental abuse) and other potential abuse that can go along with abusing children in general as well as the philological damage done to the child in question. So a statement on one issue doesn't make any implications about the other issue even if the statement was about an adult male and a male minor.

Bisexuals are more common that full homosexuals, so Merlin is defiantly not the only one on Safehold(although what Merlin's gender and sexuality are is a difficult question). I would note though, that no matter what there would be homosexuals and bisexuals on Safehold, a genetic link is pretty firmly established at this point(also some environmental factors), the question is simply what are societal mores on the issue.

Transgender: The issue is insoluble before modern at least relatively modern surgery and hormone therapies. So an comment in the book of Bedard would be mostly useless.

I imagine Adams and Eves were chosen such that none of them were likely to be uninterested in reproductive activity, or to have a genetic predisposition that would lead to descendants strictly uninterested in it either. So as far as genetic bases go, that may have skewed Safehold's initial gene pool a bit further away from rigorous homosexuality than we've had on Earth. Then again, if that sort of rigorous homosexuality does confer some sort of indirect fitness advantage (I think the jury's still out on that now), it may have been a non-issue for Ark's planners. Or it could be that the jury was still out for the late Terran Federation too and they simply didn't work it into their selection criteria.

We haven't seen any direct evidence of homophobia - or biphobia or transphobia for that matter - and we haven't had any direct evidence of approval or specific tolerance of alternative sexual orientations or gender identities. Merlin's got his own very specific issues, but those are probably just what you get when you're a heterosexual, cisgendered woman stuck by duty in a male body. However tolerant his birth society or current one is, he's got complications right there inside his own skin and head.

There doesn't seem to be too much tradition on Safehold's Out Islands at least of nobles adopting to satisfy the need for heirs. State marriages and the call to produce heirs of the body would likely be less important if there were. Given that pressure, having no sexual interest whatever in your opposite-sex spouse would be awkward, though tolerable workarounds (and issues with them) have already been brought up.

I do worry that, however modern and decent Bedard, Chihiro and all were socially (apart from what their idea of the program for Safehold required), the emphasis on reproduction for the Adams and Eves and the institution of marriage for that purpose is likely to generate some fallout for same-sex relationships. Then again, maybe the passages in the Writ that they included to counteract that simply haven't come up and same-sex relationships, while tolerated and accepted, aren't so frequent as to have been mentioned yet either.