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Spider Nukes

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Spider Nukes
Post by quark   » Tue Nov 11, 2014 12:41 am

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I was reading the FAQs, and it struck me that most of the objections to using contact nukes arose from the impeller wedge. Do you think that contact nukes, especially with Apollo, might be effective against spider drive ships, like the Lenny Dets?

He's mentioned various times that point defense effectiveness goes up exponentially with closer ranges, but I was wondering to what degree that would be offset by the nukes greater power, and if that would be enough. Another thing to consider is the new model missiles with improved grav lenses and bigger booms: they might make laserheads more effective.

Thoughts?
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Re: Spider Nukes
Post by kzt   » Tue Nov 11, 2014 1:00 am

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If you cannot detect, much less localize, a spider ship it is totally unimportant what the weapon is you intend to use against it. Because you won't ever get to use that weapon.
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Re: Spider Nukes
Post by JeffEngel   » Tue Nov 11, 2014 10:42 am

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kzt wrote:If you cannot detect, much less localize, a spider ship it is totally unimportant what the weapon is you intend to use against it. Because you won't ever get to use that weapon.


Indeed. And without a sidewall or wedge, a spider drive ship will be a fairly easy kill with any missile or anti-shipping energy weapon. (Heck, it may come out of it poorly if you could slap a counter-missile into it.)

They do have point defense, as a kind of forlorn hope, in case someone sees them to shoot at them. The greater standoff range of laserheads will make them a bit better against that than a contact nuke. But in any case, the huge hurdle is just finding the things to attack them at all.

When I first saw the subject line though, I was thinking it was going to be about spider drive missiles with contact nuke warheads - the idea being, if the missile cannot be detected effectively, it's got a decent enough chance of getting a close, up-the-throat or -kilt shot at the target to make the contact nuke warhead worth it. The much lower acceleration of a spider drive missile would be an issue but tolerable, especially if you can arrange attacks against relatively non-evasive, unsuspecting targets, which spider drive units should be able to manage. There may be something to that one, but the prevalence of bow walls and stern walls on recent Manticoran and Grayson units (and likely near-future Havenite and Beowulfan ones) would make that a bit less promising.
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Re: Spider Nukes
Post by quark   » Tue Nov 11, 2014 11:15 am

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I guess I forgot about the main difficulty of finding spider drive ships rather than killing them. Thanks!
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Re: Spider Nukes
Post by james99   » Tue Nov 11, 2014 12:26 pm

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I believe that a second attack will be much more difficult. I think that Admiral Hemphill's crew will be able to trace back the "ghost footprints" when the ships leave hyper space. My impression is that the "Oyster Bay program" used almost all of the spider ships. More important than the spider ships is to determine their base. Once an R & D establishment knows a technological breakthrough exists they can find it. They may not be able to engineer it as well in the beginning but they might come up with some surprises.
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Re: Spider Nukes
Post by Theemile   » Tue Nov 11, 2014 1:17 pm

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james99 wrote:I believe that a second attack will be much more difficult. I think that Admiral Hemphill's crew will be able to trace back the "ghost footprints" when the ships leave hyper space. My impression is that the "Oyster Bay program" used almost all of the spider ships. More important than the spider ships is to determine their base. Once an R & D establishment knows a technological breakthrough exists they can find it. They may not be able to engineer it as well in the beginning but they might come up with some surprises.


It all depends on where you will be hitting with the Spider forces. Against Manticore, Beowulf, Grayson or Haven - Spider ships will probably have little luck. Against a planet like, say, Prarie, without the big sensitive system arrays, and few, older hyper capable defenders, They can almost certainly get into a system and cause havoc. (Now why you would attack Prarie in such a way is another story...)

Also, at this point in the story line, we are about 1-2 years away from the first of the Leonard Detweiler class of spider SDs being available for MAlign use, so while their forces are limited now, that may not be so for long.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Spider Nukes
Post by MAD-4A   » Tue Nov 11, 2014 1:30 pm

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JeffEngel wrote:...When I first saw the subject line though, I was thinking it was going to be about spider drive missiles with contact nuke warhead...

same here. which could also be explored. (perhaps defensive mines) however...
james99 wrote:I believe that a second attack will be much more difficult. I think that Admiral Hemphill's crew will be able to trace back the "ghost footprints" when the ships leave hyper space...
quite right. The spider drive doesn't make the ship more difficult to detect. as with many of Honors own maneuvers, there are no "bushes" to hide behind in space. the problem with the spider drive is that, everyone has been using the same wedge technology for so long that everyone has gotten use to the idea of relying on their gravitics to detect threats, as with honor in Hades, if the Havenite fleet had been watching their radar displays they would have detected her battlecruisers sweeping in behind them. Once everyone knows there’s an “invisible” drive ship out there then they will be more diligent in watching their radar and MAD displays and they will be able to detect them (especially if they already revealed their presence with an attack – either non-fatal or on another target).
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Almost only counts in Horseshoes and Nuclear Weapons. I almost got the Hand-Grenade out the window does not count.
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Re: Spider Nukes
Post by Duckk   » Tue Nov 11, 2014 1:38 pm

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The Alignment ships also have improved stealth paint on their hulls, to mitigate active sensors.
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Shields at 50%, taunting at 100%! - Tom Pope
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Re: Spider Nukes
Post by kzt   » Tue Nov 11, 2014 2:30 pm

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It's space opera, not a text on physics. Some stuff just works because. Stealth is the biggest "I have to believe" button you have to push.

Real life the heat signature of the RMN recon drones would make them visible at light hours. Really, the damn things would glow like a star. But they do not and are not.
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Re: Spider Nukes
Post by n7axw   » Tue Nov 11, 2014 3:50 pm

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We probably shouldn't assume that the spiders will remain invisible forever. There is lots of R&D going on and eventually the key to localizing the spiders will be found.

I know, I know, I'm probably being foolishly optimistic! :lol:

Don
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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