Spoiler What could the reformed COGA look like? Spoiler

One of the most damaging results of reform diminishing the power of the centralized church is the impact on the professional educations provided by the various orders.(Someone, JeffEngel?, brought this up in the Seminary thread, I think.) I believe we know next to nothing about the physical distribution of the professional/graduate schools or the location of the leadership of the different orders. I'd be surprised if they weren't all located in or near Zion.

One of the most damaging results of reform diminishing the power of the centralized church is the impact on the professional educations provided by the various orders.(Someone, JeffEngel?, brought this up in the Seminary thread, I think.) I believe we know next to nothing about the physical distribution of the professional/graduate schools or the location of the leadership of the different orders. I'd be surprised if they weren't all located in or near Zion.

See: http://www.davidweber.net/faqs/index/series:6/page:2 Topic "Overview of Education on Safehold"

In the above topic, David Weber gives an example of the process of starting a "professional college" with the example being one in Siddarmark.

While not expressly stated, the example seems to indicate that the Church approved professional colleges and universities are set up anywhere on Safehold where they are needed not near Zion (or in the Temple Lands).

Now, it's possible that Safehold Seminaries are generally situated in the Temple Lands but considering the number of clergy needed and travel times, it's possible that many of the Seminaries are located outside to the Temple Lands.

EdThomas wrote:One of the most damaging results of reform diminishing the power of the centralized church is the impact on the professional educations provided by the various orders.(Someone, JeffEngel?, brought this up in the Seminary thread, I think.) I believe we know next to nothing about the physical distribution of the professional/graduate schools or the location of the leadership of the different orders. I'd be surprised if they weren't all located in or near Zion.

Hi Anwi,

I'm kind of split on this, guys.

I've posted about CoGA believers being part of the navy crews that find the Gbabba, yet we know Merlin has sworn to destroy the CoGA utterly and made this known to inquisition victims.

At the same time its so big its going to take a while, and Merlin has demonstrated great patience, so his timetable may be decades or generations in the making.

A more mellow CoGA, without the inquisition persecuting non clergy would obviously be a big improvement, but what kind of reforms will Duchairn accept or push for?

Admitting the corruption and moral failure of the temple [false jihad etc] will destroy much of its support, but there still will be many tens if not hundreds of millions who will argue they were merely minor faults in a thousand year rule, however many millions wrongfully died as a result.

The reformist movement inside the CoGA is relatively small and keeping their heads down according to the textev, if Duchairn is successful, about which I'm not totally confident, they will surface.

Duchairn knows the huge fortunes the CoGA receives is a major source of the corruption; does he have a plan to turn most of it back to the local or national level?

Does he plan of following Maikel's lead in reducing the CoGA's political influence?

If the alliance controls the eastern temple lands, the Border States, Dohlar, Silkiah [including most of Desnar's North Watch province], leaving only the western temple lands and north Harchong on Haven, and blockading Howard, the CoGA's direct influence drops to less than 250 M, until the Harchong social or geographic civil wars boils over, or the hardliners attempt another war before Charis's advantages become too overwhelming.

Interesting times indeed,

L

anwi wrote:

EdThomas wrote:There seems to be a consensus here that the COGA will be “reformed". (snip)
My problem with “reform” is that I have no idea of what you're talking about because I know very little about how different churches are organized. Could you please give some examples of how a reformed COGA would look. Thanks

What we know is that there was (and still is) a reformist movement in the CoGA, even in Haven and Howard. Their goal was probably to bring the CoGA back on the path defined by the "Great Charge" of Langhorne: That the Church serves the people, and not vice versa.
The problem is that the mainstream was towards a theocratic empire. Any effective reformist movement would have probably shattered the CoGA as soon as the major political powers took an interest. (Harchong was just fine with the CoGA as it was, Siddarmark not so. Just look at the Holy Roman Empire during the reformation for references.)

If you're talking about the time after the truth about Langhorne comes out, I'd still expect a very fractured picture of denominations. There might even be fanatics sanctifying Clyntahn . But there won't be one central CoGA any more, and whatever major church would be established, the names of Langhorne and Bedard would not feature in it at all...

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Hi Lyonheart

?? Maybe the CoGA will fade in Safehold history as Egypt's and Rome's and Greece's gods have here on Old Terra ??

R
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One important step in reforming the Church will be making members of the priesthood fully subject to secular law. As long as priests can only be judged by church courts and only be punished by the church, there will always be serious abuses.
There is no textev that even the Church of Charis is willing to relinquish its secular authority completely. When Father Waimyn was tried and arrested in Manchyr for the murder of Father Hahskans, it was necessary for Archbishop Gairlyng to expel him from the priesthood before he could be executed by the secular authorities. They were willing to let the secular courts execute him, but only after they had expelled him, implying that if they [url]didn't[/url] expel him, he couldn't be touched
This is still putting the authority of the church before the authority of the secular authorities, and it will will have to be eliminated if there is ever to be separation of church and state.
Philip Stanley

Hi,

lyonheart wrote:(snip)
A more mellow CoGA, without the inquisition persecuting non clergy would obviously be a big improvement, but what kind of reforms will Duchairn accept or push for?
Admitting the corruption and moral failure of the temple [false jihad etc] will destroy much of its support, but there still will be many tens if not hundreds of millions who will argue they were merely minor faults in a thousand year rule, however many millions wrongfully died as a result.

Several comments: Duchairn is only one (albeit important) player here (and he might be tainted by the failing jihad as well). After Clyntahn's purge of the reformist high-level clergy, the establishment should be a bit skewed. So, even if Duchairn were to move against Clyntahn, the outcome in Zion is less than clear. For me, even a scenario is plausible where fanatics disgusted by Clyntahn's personal corruption and misdirection of the jihad would take over.
In any case, there is so much bad blood already between the CoGA and the Reformist churches (!) that re-unification is not likely. Actually, if you follow the discussion of personal experience of God and the consequential responsibility of the indiviual believer by Maikel Staynair and by Rhobair Duchairn, respectively, there are distinct similarities with theological disputes between the Protestants and the Catholics. And those discussions are not resolved even today, I think.
Therefore, I think the fractured CoGA will stay fractured. The question is only, how many major splinters there will be. And it's highly likely - barring further revelations by a "genuine" archangel to the contrary - that a significant part of dyed-in-the-wool old School CoGA fanatics with control over relevant parts of the Safeholdian population (e.g. parts of Harchong) will remain.

Philip Stanley wrote:One important step in reforming the Church will be making members of the priesthood fully subject to secular law. (snip)
This is still putting the authority of the church before the authority of the secular authorities, and it will will have to be eliminated if there is ever to be separation of church and state.

Quite right, but there's one problem: The writ by Langhorne specifically defines the immunity of priests to secular law. That complicates things a lot - basically you'd have to debunk Chihiro's work as the fraud it is to get all the issues with Church supremacy solved. And I see no way of doing that which won't break what churches based on that writ there are.
For me, it will be interesting to see how far the author allows himself to go on this issue. I dare say modelling the CoC along the lines of protestants is not pure coincidence...

Lots of good thoughts here. I agree that the schism is permanent. No one in Siddermark or Charis in particular is going to let the COGA back in control, not after everything that's happened.

I am reminded of the disenfranchisement of Catholics in Britian. Particularly after the reign of Mary Tudor and the Jacobite troubles in the 17th century, it took a long time to overcome the distrust created by the fear of what many thought would be papal rule.

Don