Spoiler What could the reformed COGA look like? Spoiler

EdThomas wrote:There seems to be a consensus here that the COGA will be “reformed". (snip)
My problem with “reform” is that I have no idea of what you're talking about because I know very little about how different churches are organized. Could you please give some examples of how a reformed COGA would look. Thanks

What we know is that there was (and still is) a reformist movement in the CoGA, even in Haven and Howard. Their goal was probably to bring the CoGA back on the path defined by the "Great Charge" of Langhorne: That the Church serves the people, and not vice versa.
The problem is that the mainstream was towards a theocratic empire. Any effective reformist movement would have probably shattered the CoGA as soon as the major political powers took an interest. (Harchong was just fine with the CoGA as it was, Siddarmark not so. Just look at the Holy Roman Empire during the reformation for references.)

If you're talking about the time after the truth about Langhorne comes out, I'd still expect a very fractured picture of denominations. There might even be fanatics sanctifying Clyntahn . But there won't be one central CoGA any more, and whatever major church would be established, the names of Langhorne and Bedard would not feature in it at all...

anwi wrote:

EdThomas wrote:There seems to be a consensus here that the COGA will be “reformed". (snip)
My problem with “reform” is that I have no idea of what you're talking about because I know very little about how different churches are organized. Could you please give some examples of how a reformed COGA would look. Thanks

What we know is that there was (and still is) a reformist movement in the CoGA, even in Haven and Howard. Their goal was probably to bring the CoGA back on the path defined by the "Great Charge" of Langhorne: That the Church serves the people, and not vice versa.
The problem is that the mainstream was towards a theocratic empire. Any effective reformist movement would have probably shattered the CoGA as soon as the major political powers took an interest. (Harchong was just fine with the CoGA as it was, Siddarmark not so. Just look at the Holy Roman Empire during the reformation for references.)

If you're talking about the time after the truth about Langhorne comes out, I'd still expect a very fractured picture of denominations. There might even be fanatics sanctifying Clyntahn . But there won't be one central CoGA any more, and whatever major church would be established, the names of Langhorne and Bedard would not feature in it at all...

That was a nice post, anwi. But I keep thinking about the Roman Church after the Reformation. What happened then? the Counter-Reformation in which she kept the doctrines the reformers objected to, but purified the corruption and worked at disciplining and educating the clergy. The thing is, Rome is still far and away the largest organized church in the world, easily bigger than Protestantism and Eastern Orthodoxy combined.

Now think about the COGA. She is far closer to being a world wide church than Rome ever was. In fact she literally IS a world wide church. It is hard for me to imagine that COGA will not be the largest church even after the inquisition has been defanged, the G-4 gone, and the church has her political power broken. Given the way people embrace their religious beliefs, that will be true for a l-o-o-o-n-g time.

Don

n7axw wrote:That was a nice post, anwi. But I keep thinking about the Roman Church after the Reformation. What happened then?
(snip) Rome is still far and away the largest organized church in the world, easily bigger than Protestantism and Eastern Orthodoxy combined.
(snip)
It is hard for me to imagine that COGA will not be the largest church even after the inquisition has been defanged, the G-4 gone, and the church has her political power broken. Given the way people embrace their religious beliefs, that will be true for a l-o-o-o-n-g time.

After Luther and the then protestant Princes of the Holy Roman Empire broke the unity of the Catholic Church in Germany, the protestants themselves had to quell a peasant revolt. Soon, several minor wars broke out between protestant and catholic princes. Only 100 years after the start of the reformation, the tensions led to the 30 Years' War, which pretty much ravaged central Germany. And if France (catholic) hadn't prevented Austria-Spain (catholic) from mopping up those heretics in the northern and eastern parts of Germany for most of that period, the reformation would have been toast. That this didn't happen is mostly due to the fact that the theocratic leanings of the Catholic Church had been broken some centuries before by the Holy Roman emperors and the French kings.
Rome survived as the most important denomination simply because of the political interests of monarchs. For the hypothetical situation on Safehold with a reformist movement being successful, we could expect a similar situation, with the more theocratic part of CoGA being allied to Harchong, Desnair, and Dohlar, whereas the reformists would be holding sway in Siddarmark, Charis, and Chisholm. Unfortunately, because of the theocratic leanings of the CoGA, jihad would have been an inevitable reaction to any "heretic" split. Now, this reminds me of something....

It remains the question what would happen after the truth is revealed. I think that even Maikel Staynair couldn't hold his church together. I mean, just figure what would happen if an alien would exit from his spaceship in the Vatican and declare to the public: The Bible was written by us, because we decided to curb the further development of mankind. And there're some clips on YouTube where you can see us laughing 2000 years ago. And then that same alien goes to Mecca...

anwi wrote:

n7axw wrote:That was a nice post, anwi. But I keep thinking about the Roman Church after the Reformation. What happened then?
(snip) Rome is still far and away the largest organized church in the world, easily bigger than Protestantism and Eastern Orthodoxy combined.
(snip)
It is hard for me to imagine that COGA will not be the largest church even after the inquisition has been defanged, the G-4 gone, and the church has her political power broken. Given the way people embrace their religious beliefs, that will be true for a l-o-o-o-n-g time.

After Luther and the then protestant Princes of the Holy Roman Empire broke the unity of the Catholic Church in Germany, the protestants themselves had to quell a peasant revolt. Soon, several minor wars broke out between protestant and catholic princes. Only 100 years after the start of the reformation, the tensions led to the 30 Years' War, which pretty much ravaged central Germany. And if France (catholic) hadn't prevented Austria-Spain (catholic) from mopping up those heretics in the northern and eastern parts of Germany for most of that period, the reformation would have been toast. That this didn't happen is mostly due to the fact that the theocratic leanings of the Catholic Church had been broken some centuries before by the Holy Roman emperors and the French kings.
Rome survived as the most important denomination simply because of the political interests of monarchs. For the hypothetical situation on Safehold with a reformist movement being successful, we could expect a similar situation, with the more theocratic part of CoGA being allied to Harchong, Desnair, and Dohlar, whereas the reformists would be holding sway in Siddarmark, Charis, and Chisholm. Unfortunately, because of the theocratic leanings of the CoGA, jihad would have been an inevitable reaction to any "heretic" split. Now, this reminds me of something....

It remains the question what would happen after the truth is revealed. I think that even Maikel Staynair couldn't hold his church together. I mean, just figure what would happen if an alien would exit from his spaceship in the Vatican and declare to the public: The Bible was written by us, because we decided to curb the further development of mankind. And there're some clips on YouTube where you can see us laughing 2000 years ago. And then that same alien goes to Mecca...

...goes to Mecca and gets himself beheaded for blasphemy, you mean?

You got the rest of it about right, although in detail the story gets even sadder as some of those poor people were changing their faith every time their home got overrun and they got a new prince, breeding a lot of cynicism. Even today the church in Europe is but a shadow of its former self.

Rome, of course was very busily monopolizing Latin America via Spanish colonization and empire building.

Don

n7axw wrote:

anwi wrote: And then that same alien goes to Mecca...

...goes to Mecca and gets himself beheaded for blasphemy, you mean?

Those wahhabits are certainly delusional enough to make the attempt .

n7axw wrote:You got the rest of it about right, although in detail the story gets even sadder as some of those poor people were changing their faith every time their home got overrun and they got a new prince, breeding a lot of cynicism. Even today the church in Europe is but a shadow of its former self.

Rome, of course was very busily monopolizing Latin America via Spanish colonization and empire building.
Don

Two Points: The relative weakness of the denominations in Europe, at least compared to the US, is a comparatively new phenomenon. I'd say it's a result of two world wars, the collapse of several ideologies, and the relative peace following the European Union process. (Even the Northern Ireland conflict is kind of drying up...)
The colonization of Latin America was driven by the Spanish and Portuguese monarchs. "Their" church was simply following for keeping a solid lid on potential uprisings...

Interesting discussion. My idea of what reform would look like is/was based on Nynian's words, “I knew better than most what had really happened to Saint Evyrahard, and I’d come to the conclusion there was precious little chance of the vicarate’s ever reforming itself. The rot was too deep, the momentum building too steadily, for that to happen...." I'm thinking 1. the Inquisition goes away, 2, the vicarate goes away and 3. we end up with a collection of "national" churches. I'm ignorant of what differentiates one Protestant denomination from the other so I'm also thinking the postwar religious set would be two flavors similar to the existing COC and COGA difference. We don't really know much about the Writ but my impression is there would be a lot less to disagree about than there seems to be in the Bible(s?).

anwi wrote:
Two Points: The relative weakness of the denominations in Europe, at least compared to the US, is a comparatively new phenomenon. I'd say it's a result of two world wars, the collapse of several ideologies, and the relative peace following the European Union process. (Even the Northern Ireland conflict is kind of drying up...)
The colonization of Latin America was driven by the Spanish and Portuguese monarchs. "Their" church was simply following for keeping a solid lid on potential uprisings...

I disagree with your first point strongly. A large part (at least a third) of France and Belgium held strong secular views as soon as 1848. Churches kept strong influence up to 1905 in France, when the law of separation forbid them expressly to act in the political scene, but it was seen as undue.

In Germany and northern Europe, it is a bit different because there is no separation law but the majority, while affiliated to a church/temple/whatever of their choice, hold as much secular views as France, and this also since before WWI. The only 2 groups still really belonging to denominations are upper-middle classes and small farmers.

On the other hand, Italy, Spain, and strangely many eastern countries have a lot of people with faith.

EdThomas wrote:Interesting discussion. My idea of what reform would look like is/was based on Nynian's words, “I knew better than most what had really happened to Saint Evyrahard, and I’d come to the conclusion there was precious little chance of the vicarate’s ever reforming itself. The rot was too deep, the momentum building too steadily, for that to happen...." I'm thinking 1. the Inquisition goes away, 2, the vicarate goes away and 3. we end up with a collection of "national" churches. I'm ignorant of what differentiates one Protestant denomination from the other so I'm also thinking the postwar religious set would be two flavors similar to the existing COC and COGA difference. We don't really know much about the Writ but my impression is there would be a lot less to disagree about than there seems to be in the Bible(s?).

I have an impression of the Writ as being pretty tightly constructed, all by the same group of people with different books covering different subjects.

The Bible, on the other hand is more like a collage, flowing out of history spanning centuries of time, bound together by an internal consistancy and yet reflecting a broad variety of experience and diversity of viewpoint. It's easy to see why there are so many protestant denominations and sects, each growing out of vital experience and encounter with different parts of scripture. And yet protestantism itself is bound together by it devotion to both the Bible and the God whom the Bible professes to reveal.

I doubt that Safehold will ever reflect that kind of religious diversity. I would expect that the COGA will remain the largest group, but forced to appeal to the faith of its people rather than relying on political power and coercion. The COC will be a second type of church to develop, shorn of the archangels, but retaining the COGA's structure except for the vicarate and the inquisition. Finally I would expect groups similar to many within protestantism who reject the current structures and substitute their own. This latter will be quite fragmented.

Don

alj_sf wrote:

anwi wrote:
Two Points: The relative weakness of the denominations in Europe, at least compared to the US, is a comparatively new phenomenon.

I disagree with your first point strongly. (snip)

Well we're going off-topic, so might be switching the forum is called for.
As a short reply: What I meant is that there were not that much differences overall between the US and most parts of Europe, probably up to WW1 (after that the communists changed a lot).
Recent trends regarding the influence of denominations in public life are quite different between the US and Europe, as I see it.

Ok, the big issue in CoGA reformation is the extreme difficultly of it. The main problem is that the systemic problems that the church is facing go back centuries, in fact one of the indicators, though minor orders almost always being associated with the great orders is a minor note, goes back to the time when there were still archangels.

But the big problem the centralization of functions in Zion, the suppression of the episcolate's (sp?) independence is tied into an even greater quagmire. It is tied into the basis of the vicarate's power. In fact it is tied to the ability of the grand vicar to issue proclaimations without the rest of the vicarate's agreement.
Staynair pointed out that the grand vicar's proclaimations only have force when they are in accordance with the vicarate (he currently has a nearly blank check for that) the writ and god's will. Once you overturn any part of the structure in an uncontrolled fashion, everything for the last few centuries done by the vicarate is open to question.
Imagine the US constitution had a major chunk knocked out of it, (say admendment 14) what happens to case law based in part, but not exclusively, on said part, suddenly we would have no idea, it would vary signifcantly between the various circuit courts, and states. In some places there would be a shrug and take it to trial response. Now imagine precendents were sometimes unlabeled as to reasoning.
The CoGA's doctrinal chaos would be even greater.