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Re: HFQ Offical Snippet #4 | |
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by n7axw » Thu Nov 06, 2014 1:13 am | |
n7axw
Posts: 5997
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No. The sisters haven't produced a translation of the journal, to say nothing of a faithful translation.
Here is the thing. In order to translate competently, you have to go about it one of two ways. Far and the way the best method would be to live in the culture whose language you are seeking to learn. That way you would be picking up the cultural idiom and philosophical nuances as well as the vocabulary and grammar of the language and would avoid many of things that trip up many attempts at translation. The second way is through exhaustive study. I understand that these days you have such programs as Rosetta Stone. I am not sure how far these programs can take you. Back when I did it, it was mostly done by rehearsal and reading material that became increasingly difficult as your reading skills improved. Our goal was to be able to read classical literature as well as at least rudimentary translation of the biblical languages. Let me try to illustrate the problem. Most of us have probably read the King James Bible and/or Shakespeare in the idiom of the time. All of the thees and thous and other peculiarities can make it rough going. But we can do it...or so we think. In reality we lose about 20% of the meaning because both vocabulary and grammar have shifted to the point where it is different in our time than it was in 1602. What is really tricky is that we can think that we are getting it. And even more fun would be trying Chaucer which is older yet. That very problem is compounded many times over when you are dealing with an altogether different language. Now consider the problem that the sisters would face. Not only is the language different, but human culture on Safehold has been evolving away from the original template for a minimum of 750 years. And no Rosetta Stone software for the sisters. So...do they have a translation? Nope. No way. Don When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: HFQ Offical Snippet #4 | |
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by AncientMariner » Thu Nov 06, 2014 2:54 am | |
AncientMariner
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Hi Don,
Just to be clear, we are in complete agreement. For the reasons you and I have posted, I don't believe they have a viable translation. Although if they did... then why would Aivah lie about it? That was just a hypothetical question, which I should have made clearer... AM
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Re: HFQ Offical Snippet #4 | |
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by n7axw » Thu Nov 06, 2014 12:32 pm | |
n7axw
Posts: 5997
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I see Nynian as being very truthful with Merlin. I know that she has been into covert stuff, spying and all round skulldudgery, but she has decided Merlin is on her side.
Don When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: HFQ Offical Snippet #4 | |
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by Howard T. Map-addict » Thu Nov 06, 2014 1:05 pm | |
Howard T. Map-addict
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Re: HFQ Offical Snippet #4 | |
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by AncientMariner » Thu Nov 06, 2014 3:27 pm | |
AncientMariner
Posts: 49
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De acuerdo. No hay un lenguaje mejor. |
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Re: HFQ Offical Snippet #4 | |
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by lyonheart » Fri Nov 07, 2014 12:43 am | |
lyonheart
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Hi AncientMariner,
This has been a fascinating thread extension, thanks to you and Anwi, so kudos to both of you. If we're lucky we have only a 5day to wait for the next snippet. It's so hard! L
Any snippet or post from RFC is good if not great!
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Re: HFQ Offical Snippet #4 | |
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by AncientMariner » Fri Nov 07, 2014 12:03 pm | |
AncientMariner
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Thanks Lyonheart!
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Re: HFQ Offical Snippet #4 | |
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by anwi » Sat Nov 08, 2014 6:40 am | |
anwi
Posts: 176
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Hi, more below.
Aivah has told Merlin that Khody specifically states those sections are written in "Español" and that it's another language. That should suffice for starting the process.
As I read things there would have to be extraordinary circumstances to prevent them (or even Aivah) from figuring out most of the content. You don't have to be a grammatician or a linguist for that, it's just a question of hard work. Moreover, the incentives for the Sisterhood should be there: why would they decide to not know the thoughts of their patron saint? I quite expect (and Aivah hints at that) that there are quite some discussions about (and factions on) what specific statements by Khody are really meaning. But them knowing nothing, I don't buy into that.
Well, I think that they don't have a faithful translation, but I think they have several translations with a varying degree of accuracy. Apart from the reasons why this is perfectly possible consider as well why, out of several likely possibilities (Chinese, Russian, Arabic, Welsh ,... ), RFC decided to take Spanish. If he'd taken one of the above chances of a translation actually were zero. You need a Rosetta stone for that, good luck with finding one. But he didn't. And as much as I grapple with Spanish there are few languages where arriving at an understanding with the means of Safeholdians is easier than Spanish. It might work more easily with Dutch and possibly Norwegian and Swedish, but even there I'm not so sure. French and German would actually be harder to solve than Spanish while Italian might be on the same level, I guess. That reinforces my belief that Aivah's testing Merlin. As to why: That depends on the content of the Spanish sections. She has been probing for the extra-Safeholdian origin of mankind (Khody would have stated that clearly only in Spanish). Depending on where her preferences lie (Langhorne vs. Shanwei vs. ?) she could fear Merlin's associated with the "wrong" faction. This is not necessarily a contradiction to identifying him as an ally in the current fight against the Go4. As an aside: If the Sisterhood arrived at translations they way I assume that could lead to interesting conclusions. As Spanish was written by a saint near to the angels perhaps he was writing in a more godly language than common people. This, in turn, was derived from a "lingua dei" reserved to communication of god with his archangels. The common language (English, unfortunately) was more watered down by the uncouth speech of sinners. Another sign of the fallen nature of man. |
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Re: HFQ Offical Snippet #4 | |
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by Randomiser » Sat Nov 08, 2014 5:07 pm | |
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Since Aivah is seeking a favour which means a lot to her and given the acknowledged dangers if they don't end up trusting each other, lying to Merlin to create some kind of cutesy test seems awfully stupid to me. And if there is one thing Nynian isn't, it's stupid
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Re: HFQ Offical Snippet #4 | |
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by n7axw » Sat Nov 08, 2014 9:05 pm | |
n7axw
Posts: 5997
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I whole heartedly agree. Laying aside the high improbability of the sisters coming up with a translation, the notion of Nynian "testing" Merlin simply doesn't square with what we know of her character. She has already vetted Merlin to her own satisfaction and come out into the open with her story. It now remains to be seen if Merlin and the inner circle can decide they trust Nynian. Don When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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