HFQ Official Snippet #7

I am not trying to carry water for Dohlar's "useless sot of a king" as Thirsk refers to him.

But, let's remember who is really in effective control here. It isn't Rahnahld. It isn't Thirsk. The decision on how the prisoners were to to be treated was made by the bishop executor's intendant --in short, the inquisition, just like the decision to confiscate the ships and incite a massacure at Feryad wasn't made by Zhames, but by the inquisition. And the decision to take the prisoners to Zion was actually made in Zion.

Furthermore, had the the same circumstance occured in any of the other TL realms on Safehold, the result would have been the same.

The supremacy of Zion on Safehold is a very strong moral imperative supported by a consensus of not only aristocrats and kings, but by ordinary people. They support it not only because it's always been that way but because they have been taught that it is God's plan. The horror that Temple Loyalists feel toward Cayleb and Charis is because for the very first time, Charis is challenging that consensus. And if it seems that as a secular leader you have not been sufficiently deferential to Zion's supremacy or you have tried to circumvent it, you get the Sword of Schuler launched at you as the inquisition raises your own population against you.

My point is that responsibility for what happened to Admiral Manthyr and his men rests not in Gorath, but in Zion. That is really where Charis' anger is properly directed.

Don

That sounds way too much like "I was just following orders". I recall RFC saying the Writ teaches in a personal relationship with God but does not emphasizes it. That means it is the personal responsibility of the individual to recognize evil.

Time that Charis teaches that lesson and accrues some political good will to boot.

Agree in part.

The "major" guilt is still the Inquisition and the major punishment should be directed toward the Inquisition.

However, Dohlar should pay a "price" for "just following orders" just as the City of Ferayd paid a price for the massacre that happened there.

I'm not sure that the removal of Dohlar's current king (and royal family) is the proper punishment.

Now, the destruction of the Royal Palace and a good part of the City of Gorath, might be the proper punishment.

PeterZ wrote:That sounds way too much like "I was just following orders". I recall RFC saying the Writ teaches in a personal relationship with God but does not emphasizes it. That means it is the personal responsibility of the individual to recognize evil.

Time that Charis teaches that lesson and accrues some political good will to boot.

Removal from the throne might well be unreasonable. That was the intent. A ruler had better think about the orders he is following. If he doesn't and ends up ticking off the allies enough, he might face unreasonable consequences. So, to Clyntahn with Rahnahld. Throw him out of office and have the populace elect his replacement. Let Thirsk govern until the election results are in.

There will likely be no palaces left standing, so Thirsk will have to live modestly.

DrakBibliophile wrote:Agree in part.

The "major" guilt is still the Inquisition and the major punishment should be directed toward the Inquisition.

However, Dohlar should pay a "price" for "just following orders" just as the City of Ferayd paid a price for the massacre that happened there.

I'm not sure that the removal of Dohlar's current king (and royal family) is the proper punishment.

Now, the destruction of the Royal Palace and a good part of the City of Gorath, might be the proper punishment.

Hi EdThomas,

Gee guys, haven't you heard of the KISS principle?

I've never said or implied Thirsk should be made king of Dohlar; I don't think he'd want it, and he'd probably wind up cursing whoever put him there.

Regardless of a plebiscite, and BTW, how quickly could you arrange law and order well enough to hold a fair one where none had ever been done in living memory?

What kind of foreign garrison would be required to nail down the whole countryside to make it even possible?

The Go4, the CoGA and all his other internal noble enemies would still argue it was false because they know in their lands Thirsk didn't get the support nationally he might.

Switching to a republic is far too much for Dohlar at this time, the common people would probably consider it too extreme, too quick to consider it seriously.

Now 5-6 years down the road when read with the republic and better understanding of how the process works there, might be the time to raise the question for discussion.

It seems far easier and more acceptable to Dohlar, to arrange Thirsk and Ahlverez as regents for the king's son or grandson depending on which they and Duke Fern think is the best of a probably bad lot.

Keep in mind this could mean young children, so after 10-12 years of mentoring and leading by example they could have a decent king.

L

EdThomas wrote:[quote="PeterZ

If Charis puts Thirsk on the Throne or better yet conducts a plebiscite with a few select names for the citizens of Dohlar to choose from with Thirsk as one of them. The aristocracy will be defanged and the replacement will have a different form of legitimacy but legitimacy none the less. Thirsk can deal with keeping the peace, but should he require assistance in squashing an aristo or two, I am sure Cayleb will accommodate him.

Two birds with one stone, eh? Threaten the old guard that ticks off Charis and introduce alternative political systems that are consistent with coexisting with Siddermark.

Hmmm, interesting suggestions.
A treaty or two between the two and you'd have an economic and military powerhouse. Each picking up a few pieces of the Border States and it gets even better. Might be too much too soon though. Zion's almost totally isolated except for Harchong. South Harchong might look at it as a chance to absorb the isolated Desnair. Does Dohlar have serfs?[/quote]

Who said anything g about a republic? Vote on the new king. It doesn't matter what Thirsk wants. The choice is either chaos or his ruling over Dohlar. He'll choose ruling. If he complains, Cayleb reminds Thirsk that he needs to be punished for failing to care for Charisian POWs properly.

It won't be necessary to get a complete participation. Advertising that the elections will take place in select cities at some specific time will be sufficient. Any one can come and vote. That sort of self determination is habit forming.

I wonder if whatshisname will be left on the throne until he betrays the Emperor/Empress ala Zebidiah. (I'm not remembering too well today. Forgive the name vagueness/spelling)

PeterZ wrote:That sounds way too much like "I was just following orders". I recall RFC saying the Writ teaches in a personal relationship with God but does not emphasizes it. That means it is the personal responsibility of the individual to recognize evil.

Time that Charis teaches that lesson and accrues some political good will to boot.

I am not trying to excuse the mentality but to explain it. Nor am I saying that there shouldn't be consequences for wrong dolng. The laws of God are, after all, written on the human heart. That has to be as true for Safehold as for Terra.

I'm only saing that primary responsibility rests with the inquisition, whatever accountability turns out to be appropriate for their puppets.

Don

I understand, Don. My point is that the reprisal for tortured POWs should be unreasonable enough to deter futures atrocities. While they're at it, why not target the unreasonableness to encourage withdrawal from the jihad.

My point from the beginning had little to do with justice and more with how to shape the injustice that is a reprisal. The proper target of the reprisal is Dohlar's king. Inquisitors have their own reprisal already. An unjust response to Rahnahld acquiescing to the Inquisition as he did is for the current dynasty to be removed from power. A means to give the replacement monarch legitimacy is to confirm him via a plebiscite.

If other nations see that Charis can replace the ruling junta of aristocrats with relative ease, they WILL second guess excessively violent orders and even their continued commitment to the CoGA and the Inquisition.

n7axw wrote:

PeterZ wrote:That sounds way too much like "I was just following orders". I recall RFC saying the Writ teaches in a personal relationship with God but does not emphasizes it. That means it is the personal responsibility of the individual to recognize evil.

Time that Charis teaches that lesson and accrues some political good will to boot.

I am not trying to excuse the mentality but to explain it. Nor am I saying that there shouldn't be consequences for wrong dolng. The laws of God are, after all, written on the human heart. That has to be as true for Safehold as for Terra.

I'm only saing that primary responsibility rests with the inquisition, whatever accountability turns out to be appropriate for their puppets.

Don

"Unreasonable" may not be the right word.

Strong response is the better term.

The problem IMO with "unreasonable" or "excessive" responses is that while Charis reasonably wants enemy rulers to "worry about Charis's response to obeying Inquisition orders" there's the problem of "over-reaction".

Does Charis want enemy kingdoms to become even greater enemies than they were before by "rubbing their noses" in the fact that they lost?

Dohlar's nobles are somewhat arrogant so while they might accept Charis "kicking the current king off the throne", they would very likely be insulted if their royal family was changed by Charisian orders.

You talked earlier about "defanging" the Dohlar nobles, but that may not be as easy as you think.

PeterZ wrote:Removal from the throne might well be unreasonable. That was the intent. A ruler had better think about the orders he is following. If he doesn't and ends up ticking off the allies enough, he might face unreasonable consequences. So, to Clyntahn with Rahnahld. Throw him out of office and have the populace elect his replacement. Let Thirsk govern until the election results are in.

There will likely be no palaces left standing, so Thirsk will have to live modestly.

DrakBibliophile wrote:Agree in part.

The "major" guilt is still the Inquisition and the major punishment should be directed toward the Inquisition.

However, Dohlar should pay a "price" for "just following orders" just as the City of Ferayd paid a price for the massacre that happened there.

I'm not sure that the removal of Dohlar's current king (and royal family) is the proper punishment.

Now, the destruction of the Royal Palace and a good part of the City of Gorath, might be the proper punishment.