Spoiler What could the reformed COGA look like? Spoiler

There seems to be a consensus here that the COGA will be “reformed". This quote of Nynian's in Snippet 6 indicates to me she will be in the forefront of the reformers.
“I knew better than most what had really happened to Saint Evyrahard, and I’d come to the conclusion there was precious little chance of the vicarate’s ever reforming itself. The rot was too deep, the momentum building too steadily, for that to happen. Not without a little . . . push, at least. ...”

My problem with “reform” is that I have no idea of what you're talking about because I know very little about how different churches are organized. Could you please give some examples of how a reformed COGA would look. Thanks

EdThomas wrote:There seems to be a consensus here that the COGA will be “reformed". This quote of Nynian's in Snippet 6 indicates to me she will be in the forefront of the reformers.
“I knew better than most what had really happened to Saint Evyrahard, and I’d come to the conclusion there was precious little chance of the vicarate’s ever reforming itself. The rot was too deep, the momentum building too steadily, for that to happen. Not without a little . . . push, at least. ...”

My problem with “reform” is that I have no idea of what you're talking about because I know very little about how different churches are organized. Could you please give some examples of how a reformed COGA would look. Thanks

I figure it'd differ on the following:
1 - Bishops and archbishops selected by their diocesies rather than by the vicarate. That may be the relevant secular powers on a local or national level, the local priesthood, or the people, but in any case, not the vicarate.
2 - Vastly reduced authority for the Inquisition - back down to keeping the priesthood itself in doctrinal line.
3 - Direction of the Inquisition and/or other Church authorities to the elimination of corruption in the Church.
4 - A vicarate that is meaningfully representative of something other than itself.

I don't have much idea how to map that onto familiar historical examples. The Church of God Awaiting is a world theocracy in theory and til recently in practice. As such, examples of real-world churches and real-world governments would both of them be too strained as general templates for a reformed CoGA.

The Church of Charis itself wouldn't be an easy example of what a reformed CoGA would be. The CoC doesn't have world church ambitions; it has a looser association with the state than even a reformed CoGA would likely aspire to have; it has a looser grip on the conscience and teaching even of the priesthood much less the populace than even a reformed CoGA would likely accept; and it has no close counterpart to a vicarate at all.

Hmm... I recall Weber posting a while ago that the Inquisition was originally split among three Orders before certain "reforms" gave the Order of Schueler sole control of the Inquisition. While this was done in the name of "efficiency", it actually made the Inquisition more susceptible to corruption because much of the checks and balances had been removed. Clyntahn could never have done what he does now under the old system if he had to get two other people to agree with him on even what the definition of "heresy" is, never mind who might be a "heretic".

So under a reformed Church, its priests and Vicars may gain a new appreciation for the "Archangel's wisdom" and split the Inquisition (and possibly other institutions) among multiple Orders again.

EdThomas wrote: My problem with “reform” is that I have no idea of what you're talking about because I know very little about how different churches are organized. Could you please give some examples of how a reformed COGA would look. Thanks

I think that the CoGA will not be "reformed" as such, but "reduced" by people flocking to a rainbow of "reformed churches. Very much as the Catholic Church lost a majority of its membership to thousands of Protestant denominations -- despite Martin Luther's intention to just "reform" the Catholic Church.

The two main points where the original church will have to reform are:

1) Remove the Church from secular control -- specifically out of government.

2) Remove the Inquisition or severely curtail its power, especially in secular affairs.

The present Church of Charis is probably a fair model of the minimum reform the CoGA will undergo while the CoC continues to reform further. There will be several "Reform" denominations form to suit either greater or lesser reforms all of which will combine to remove most of the CoGA's membership along with their tithes and support.

Weird Harold wrote:

EdThomas wrote: My problem with “reform” is that I have no idea of what you're talking about because I know very little about how different churches are organized. Could you please give some examples of how a reformed COGA would look. Thanks

I think that the CoGA will not be "reformed" as such, but "reduced" by people flocking to a rainbow of "reformed churches. Very much as the Catholic Church lost a majority of its membership to thousands of Protestant denominations -- despite Martin Luther's intention to just "reform" the Catholic Church.

The two main points where the original church will have to reform are:

1) Remove the Church from secular control -- specifically out of government.

2) Remove the Inquisition or severely curtail its power, especially in secular affairs.

The present Church of Charis is probably a fair model of the minimum reform the CoGA will undergo while the CoC continues to reform further. There will be several "Reform" denominations form to suit either greater or lesser reforms all of which will combine to remove most of the CoGA's membership along with their tithes and support.

I would add local appointment of Bishops and Archbishops. The Vicarage might still choose their own members, but eventually the mix of new people will impact the makeup of the Vicarage.

PeterZ wrote:I would add local appointment of Bishops and Archbishops. The Vicarage might still choose their own members, but eventually the mix of new people will impact the makeup of the Vicarage.

It won't matter how the CoGA appoints bishops or vicars because most of the population will simply ignore the CoGA and follow some other "reform" denomination. As long as separation of Church and State can be imposed the CoGA will become a minor player in politics or progress.

Weird Harold wrote:

PeterZ wrote:I would add local appointment of Bishops and Archbishops. The Vicarage might still choose their own members, but eventually the mix of new people will impact the makeup of the Vicarage.

It won't matter how the CoGA appoints bishops or vicars because most of the population will simply ignore the CoGA and follow some other "reform" denomination. As long as separation of Church and State can be imposed the CoGA will become a minor player in politics or progress.

I don't disagree. The act of locals appointing Bishops and Archbishops will just emphasize the clergy serves their dioceses.

PeterZ wrote:I don't disagree. The act of locals appointing Bishops and Archbishops will just emphasize the clergy serves their dioceses.

I think you're missing the point that many of the reform denominations are going to reject the idea of bishops and archbishops altogether. I doubt that the CoGA will ever give up centralized control of clerical appointments, but whether they do or not will be irrelevant because the parishioners are going to give up the CoGA for the CoC or one of the yet-to-be-formed "Reformed Denominations."

Weird Harold wrote:

PeterZ wrote:I don't disagree. The act of locals appointing Bishops and Archbishops will just emphasize the clergy serves their dioceses.

I think you're missing the point that many of the reform denominations are going to reject the idea of bishops and archbishops altogether. I doubt that the CoGA will ever give up centralized control of clerical appointments, but whether they do or not will be irrelevant because the parishioners are going to give up the CoGA for the CoC or one of the yet-to-be-formed "Reformed Denominations."

Hi Harold,

It could eventually turn out that way. I tend to think that reform on Safehold will start out with bishops and aechbishops chosen locally. T will take some time for the sort of "free thinking" to produce the result you are describing to sink in.

Don

Give up control? No. Have that control stripped from them through treaties or military threat? Yes.

No. They are not going to get the CoC unless that nation joins the EoC. The EoC exercises local control in selecting their Bishops and Archbishops. The CoC does not extend beyond one polity and never will. Other national ditches might seek advice from the CoC but the CoC will not take up the CoGA's mantle of authority beyond Charis' Empire.

Weird Harold wrote:

PeterZ wrote:I don't disagree. The act of locals appointing Bishops and Archbishops will just emphasize the clergy serves their dioceses.

I think you're missing the point that many of the reform denominations are going to reject the idea of bishops and archbishops altogether. I doubt that the CoGA will ever give up centralized control of clerical appointments, but whether they do or not will be irrelevant because the parishioners are going to give up the CoGA for the CoC or one of the yet-to-be-formed "Reformed Denominations."